Caleb Schmidt
Managing is a lot more positional or authoritative power, right? People listen to you because they kind of have to, right? Leading is a whole lot harder. It's more relational power. It requires a whole lot more influence, and that influence means you have to have a vision and you have to be able to articulate that vision in a way that makes people, at the end of the day, wanna follow you.
Kristiana Corona
Ever feel like everyone else has leadership figured out and you're just making it up as you go? I've been there. I spent two decades leading design and technology teams at Fortune 500 companies, and for years, I looked like I had everything pulled together on the outside, but on the inside, I felt burned out, overwhelmed, and unworthy of the title leader.
Then a surprise encounter with executive coaching changed my life and dramatically improved my leadership style and my results. Now I help others make that same shift in their leadership. This podcast is where we do the work, building the mindset, the coaching skills, and the confidence to lead with clarity and authenticity, and to finally feel worthy to lead from the inside out.
Hello and welcome to the Worthy to Lead Podcast. This is your host, Kristiana Corona, and I'm so glad that you decided to join us today for a conversation with Caleb Schmidt. Welcome to the show, Caleb.
Caleb Schmidt
Thanks for having me, Kristiana. Thrilled to join you for this conversation.
Kristiana Corona
So for those of you who don't have the joy of knowing Caleb, Caleb is a senior VP of Design, Experience design at US Bank, and he and I have worked together for a few years. I think we met back in 2019. And Caleb has a variety of experiences over the years from agency background to Fortune 500 companies. And, uh, what we're gonna dive into today is a really rich and interesting conversation about what it looks like to be a senior leader, what it looks like to be a human-centered leader in the boardroom.
So some of the topics that often come up in leadership conversations that I have are things like, How do you manage up to executives? How do you make time for strategy? How do you find the right advocacy at the highest levels, and how do you navigate the feelings of imposter syndrome, especially when you are leveling up to a new level or you're in the room that is quite different from where you've been before.
So I can't wait for this conversation today because we're gonna dive into all of those topics and really explore something that, you know, Caleb has as a strength, as a leader. I've just seen it in action, over and over again, of being able to show up both with confidence and clarity in the boardroom, while also remaining empathetic and knowing how to grow and develop others into leaders.
So, without further ado, let's dive into our conversation. So maybe to kick us off, Caleb, if you could just tell us briefly about your story, what led you to being the human-centered leader you are today?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, great question. Uh, so I've been a designer for 25 or more years. Uh, I think I was a designer before I even knew what that meant.
To be honest, I've always been naturally curious, and I use that curiosity to solve problems as a child. I think, you know, one of the things I can trace this back to is when I was maybe 10 years older or so, uh, and I'm gonna date myself here, I had this small side hustle of creating. Greeting cards on my Commodore 64, uh, computer, and it was a dot matrix printer, and I'd, you know, get all into it.
And then, I'd go around and I'd sell them door to door, and I'd always ask people for feedback, especially when they didn't make purchase. I wanted to know what could I do to improve upon those things, right? So here I am, 10 years old. Little did I know I was probably doing user research. I was using those insights to iterate on my, uh, my product and even doing paper prototypes, right?
So as far as how that's helped shape how I lead, right? Leading always come, I think, naturally to me. Even in some of my earliest jobs as a teenager, I found myself put into these positions where, uh, I had this chance to lead people. And, uh, I think was, I, you know, fast forward, went through art and design school, and early in my career as a designer, I was given an opportunity to manage an interim team while uh, someone was out on leave.
And I found out that I was not only good at it, but I really enjoyed it. As well. Um, but it did take me a few years to realize that there's a big difference between managing a team and leading a team. Managing is a lot more of that positional or authoritative power, right?
People listen to you because they kinda have to, right? Your paycheck, so to speak, kinda is tied to, uh, that, that relationship. Whereas leading is a whole lot harder. It's, uh, more relational power. It requires a whole lot more influence. And that influence means you have to have a vision and you have to be able to articulate that vision in a way that makes people at the end of the day wanna follow you.
So for me, it's a lot about finding that balance between those two aspects of managing and leading. And it's really been, I think, one of the keys to my own success as a leader. And there are tools in a toolbox, and it's about knowing when to use each one of those tools based off what you're trying to achieve and even the details of the situation itself.
Kristiana Corona
I love that your story starts with going door to door and doing sales, because I feel like that's most designers' worst nightmare. You know, creative people are like, Please let someone else do that job. But you really saw it as an opportunity, not just about making sales or getting wins, but it was about getting feedback and iterating and continuing to develop what you were offering. Right? Like, how does that shape how you think about your work today?
Caleb Schmidt
I think feedback is a big part of my work today. Both as I seek out and ask for feedback on ways that I can show up differently. Support, advocate for my teams, for my partners, for the work, right, for our customers and clients. But I think it also really has played a big role in how I provide feedback.
Uh, I wanna make sure that I, as a leader, I'm providing that. Kind of direct feedback that is going to help people grow. Sometimes it's not easy. Uh, as you think about even things like Kim Scott's radical candor, and other approaches to this, like it really means you have to not shy away from those hard conversations.
And I think that's one thing about, you know, being a leader that I've had a little bit of connection to, in the sense of, I feel like that's part of my responsibility is to help others around me grow. And one really good way to do that is to give people that in the moment, direct, but kind and empathetic, caring, feedback, right? That's how we all get better.
Kristiana Corona
Yeah, I think so many people get confused about the kindness part by sugarcoating, by saying things people want to hear by beating around the bush, and being too gentle with the feedback. So they don't even know you're giving them feedback. And I know, uh, you and I have talked about that from a cultural standpoint.
Sometimes in a Minnesota nice culture, which is where US Bank is. Is housed. There is a lot of that, right? Where direct feedback and saying exactly what needs to shift doesn't always happen. And I know that's one of the areas that you care a lot about and have, you know, focused on developing your team, which is great.
Yeah, I agree. I think, uh, it took me having that experience myself with a leader fairly early in my career who, who didn't hold back, but would still deliver that feedback in a kind of a kind way that made me, you know, kind of embody that and want to embody that, uh, as a form of my own leadership kind of style.
And I feel like when it's done. In a way that indicates that you think the other person is capable, you know where it's delivered with, I believe you can accomplish what I'm asking you to do. Like I'm holding you to a high standard, and I believe that you can actually do this. That it is quite motivating, right?
To be able to dive into that and hear that, and you're, you're thinking like, okay, this person thinks I can level up. All right, let's go. Uh, versus. You know, doing it in essence of squashing someone or just saying you're not good enough and leaving it at that. So yeah, I appreciate that conversation.
I think that's an important one, especially for leaders as they continue to go up and up. From a level perspective, the sugar coating probably starts going away, right? And you hear direct feedback whether you like it or not. So the more you can expose yourself to that, um, the better.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. And actually, I think there, there's some value in that, as you know, as I think about my own responsibility as a leader to prepare those who are coming behind me, right? For what's next. Uh, I think that's one of the views that I also take when it comes to feedback, right? Like I. I owe it to those people to prepare them for one day sitting in my seat and being able to interact and engage in those same ways.
And when I think about the path that it took me a while to learn some of these things, there's not always somebody ahead of you teaching, you know, kind of, and sharing some of those lessons. And so there's a big element of how do we pay this forward? How do I pay this forward to the leaders on my team, the leaders that I engage with and interact with, so that when they're in this position, like maybe I can make that way, that path a little bit smoother for them.
Kristiana Corona
I love that perspective, and I appreciate that you take that ownership of the careers, of the people around you, and just saying, this may be something you're not ready for here. How can I help prepare you for that today? I'd love to dive, dive into another topic here around strategy versus execution. So, uh, a lot of people make comments about, you know, gosh, I'm so busy, I really struggle with making time for strategy.
I'm too in the weeds. How do you manage that tension at your level, figuring out, you know, how to drive big results, but make space for that big picture thinking?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. I think the interesting thing and that I've learned about this is that, you know, strategy, big picture thinking, and then that delivery or execution, those two things are explicitly linked together, right?
If you want to be able to deliver something that's successful, that, uh, from a designer's perspective people want to use, you have to be able to find the time and carve out. Make that time for that strategic kind of visionary thinking. So when I, for me, when I learned that those two things were connected, uh, it changed the dynamic in the way that I went about even making that time for myself.
So now one of the things that I do on a regular basis, and it's hard 'cause you still have to protect this day in, day out, is I plan for that strategic time that I need in order to get to that execution or that delivery. And so I, I will, uh, sit down and look ahead on my calendar at the things that I know I wanna be able to deliver.
And then I will work backward from there to say, okay, how much time do I think I need for this kind of. You know, divergent big picture, thinking of time, and then what do I want to get from that, right? So, and as you prepare and kind of plan for those things, it helps to break it into even more manageable chunks of time that I know I can protect or that I can find for myself.
So, I don't approach it from trying to solve all of the problems in one, one, kind of, you know, fell swoop. But I think about it as like, what am I gonna do here in the moment that's gonna help me? Um, deliver whatever that thing is, right? And so I think that preparation is ultimately the key. And, that's how, one way in which I've unlocked kind of that time for myself.
Kristiana Corona
So when you think about maybe rough percentages of how you use your time, I'm sure there's a million things that fracture your time. Is there just a rough percentage that you use as a guide for how much time needs to be that like deep thought? Strategic time versus maybe tactical versus in time with meetings with others?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, I, you know, I would say it probably ebbs and flows depending on the point of the year and what I'm thinking ahead on. Um, but I would say roughly is probably 30, 70, and sense of being protective of that kind of strategic time to really think ahead. Um, and I think throughout the, throughout the year that will kind of shift, right?
I'm in the midst of this right now for myself as I'm thinking about 2026 and what do I want to get out of next year. What do I need to, you know, kind of set, uh, or pave the way for my teams? And so I'm doing a lot more of that. And again, we're planning for work and thinking about scope and all of the skills.
There's a lot happening around the world, across the world with AI right now. And so thinking about those things as they integrate into our ways of working and our processes and so, I naturally, I find that I spend more time doing that big kind of strategic thinking as I come to the end of the year, and then I think that helps prepare myself, my team, to hit that ground running and to take full advantage of the start of a year, the new cycle, all of those things that come with it.
Kristiana Corona
So, as you think about that best practice that you developed, maybe the 30 70, um, how do you encourage your team or the leadership team underneath you to start practicing that as well?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, I think, uh, that's one place that we spend a lot of time talking about. Um, you know, I think the teams themselves always feel that that friction between, how do I think ahead about.
You know, this experience that we're responsible for, and what should this look like in six months, a year, or even further out? As well as how do I keep delivering the things that are necessary and required for us in the moment today? Some of the things that we've started to try and kind of put into practice are our activities, like Art of the Possible, right?
So let's find a Friday afternoon where maybe we are lighter in meetings, and let's spend that time centered around a problem that we know our particular product or our particular set of customers might be facing, and let's be intentional about focusing on how we might, you know, use that block of time to get ahead on some of those things.
So that's just one of many examples, right? We do a lot of different workshops where we bring people together across teams and across audiences and client types to think about similar, uh, jobs to be done, or problems that need to be solved. And, uh, you know, I think that's been great from an inclusive perspective, bringing different points of view and thoughts together.
But I think at the end of the day, one of the things that, you know, as, as a leader and as leaders on my team, uh, we have to think about how do we protect that time for people, right? So I spend a big chunk of my own time. Advocating for this with partners and talking about the value that comes from this.
Uh, and even, you know, one of the things that we encourage teams to do is demystify the process a bit, right? So, as a design team, don't go away and do this thinking on your own only to bring the outcome or the output of that back to the rest of the team. Engage them in that process when they see and get to experience that real time for themselves, not only is the outcome better because you're bringing in more, you know, perspective and thinking about the problem from different situations or from different perspectives and angles, but it gives those individuals, those partners, a chance to practice this as well.
And more often than not across, you know, my career, I think that's where you hear feedback like, oh my gosh, this is so fun. This is amazing. Like, how do we do more of this? Right? So, uh, that's a big part of it for teams to create this space, protect this space for themselves.
Kristiana Corona
I think there's something completely magical when people start being able to work in this way and get invited into the process and find out how joyful and fun it is to actually work together in this way.
Like, I don't know about you, but there's plenty enough boring meetings that have very little agenda that are slow as molasses, and being in a really fun, intensive, you know, workshop together cross-functionally where you're literally inventing what's next for the business. I feel like there's not much better than that.
Right. And once people get a taste of that. They're like, yeah, we need to do this all the time.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. And then, I mean, that's the beauty of being human-centered in some of these ways of thinking, right? And solving problems is when you can put real human needs and problems in front of people. Uh, the way when you solve that, the way that you feel impact is far greater as, you know, you're changing, uh, you know, somebody's life in even small ways. And that's something that I think we can all, as humans, connect to.
Kristiana Corona
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And I feel like, uh, a lot of the, the stigma around taking time for strategy or having strategy buckets and feeling like you can't take that time is that we, we make it to be this really big thing in our head, oh, it's gonna take me so long, I have to do this really big project with a long tail of research and a long outcome to get to the end of it.
And often, like you said, it's just, let's grab a Friday afternoon. Let's just grab two hours with the team. Let's just go on-site and try something. Let's make the paper prototype, whatever it is, and you can move so quickly when you align people around those fast moments of innovation and inspiration constantly.
And so I think sometimes that barrier of the idea of doing strategy work, you know, once we, like you said, demystify some of that, just bring it into our every day, uh, it becomes so much easier.
Caleb Schmidt: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well said.
Kristiana Corona
So another topic that comes up often is the topic of managing up to executives.
Uh, this is something, you know, where it can be really tough because leaders in the middle, like especially you know, at the senior manager, director, VP level, are managing up. To senior stakeholders to really get buy-in. They're managing down to their teams, and then they're really focused outwards on a number of different stakeholder groups. So how do you help them to navigate that tension?
Caleb Schmidt
There's a lot of tension there. Yes, I would agree with that. So I think a couple things come to mind for me as I think about. Managing up and managing outward. And I, you know, I'll connect it back to something I was saying a minute ago around that positional versus relational power, right?
So I think first and foremost, you have to recognize the situation you're in. And then the thing I coach people on and my team's on all the time is how do you connect what you're trying to achieve to that other individual's? Goals, right? Um, when you can unite and kind of collaborate on something, it's far easier to manage up in that example.
And so if you take the time, have empathy, just like we as designers want to have empathy for, uh, you know, for our users and our customers, if you have that same level of empathy for your partners and you understand what it is that they're trying to achieve, and sometimes, uh, of course that's a business priority or objective, but sometimes there's a.
There's a human or a personal kind of need in that too. And, if you take the time to learn and understand those things, you can more easily connect what you're trying to influence to those priorities that other party has. Right? And so, um, being able to make those connections is the way that I had a lot of success over my career in being able to kind of manage up, and I think it comes back to as well, the topic of feedback, how you can show up and be kind and authentic about whatever that point of view you have. Uh, or, you know, even better, back it with data, right? We oftentimes have no shortage of data about, uh, the decisions that we're trying to influence.
And bringing that forward in a really clear, concise way is a critical step in that. And as you're engaging with. Uh, more senior, more executive-level partners and trying to manage up in those senses. You have to be able to understand how communication at that level happens, right? Like you can't walk into the room and dump a hundred page research report on somebody, right?
You've gotta show up with something that connects in a few sentences and hooks them into asking more and wanting to understand, uh, that perspective, that that opinion. And I think that's something that I see a lot of missed opportunities on, right? Thinking about this kind of audience as a one-size-fits-all approach and what works for, uh, managing Sideways doesn't work for managing up.
Then definitely doesn't work if you're, you know, going down to talk to your team. And so I think that's, uh, another skill that's really critical in, in this whole kind of construct of how you influence.
Kristiana Corona
I'm thinking back to some of the things that you and I have worked on together around helping leaders to connect back to the language that executives use.
Um, you were mentioning like how do you tie it to those goals? How do you tie it to those OKRs, but also how do you tie it to words that you hear them say? It's almost like coaching, right? When you hear someone say something, if you're able to reflect that back with the exact language, with the exact intent, or really tying it to a goal that they care deeply about.
It's a very different message than, here, look at my work. This is why, you know, we should do what I want. It is very much, you know, when you flip the script and you start speaking in their language a lot more, even to the unique person, like you were saying, it's not a one-size-fits-all approach, even managing up, like there's a lot of idiosyncrasies.
There's a lot of unique personalities. Some people like things very, very crisp. Other people like to talk about their weekend or make dog jokes or whatever. And knowing those things and finding those unique moments of connection while tuning into the things that they really care about seems to kind of be a golden ticket.
It is. It really is. And you know, I think even to pull a thread on something you just said is like, one of the things that I kind of keep a, a little running list for some of my partners, and I'm, I'm divulging secrets here, but one of the things that I often will capture is, is some of those exact phrases or words that get used a lot in their communications. Right?
And, um, sometimes that reflection, that mirroring of being able to align about around definitions of words and things can pave the way for them to. Uh, not ask certain questions or want to debate. What do you mean by that thing? Or you said this, I think it means that, right?
And so I think there is, even at a nuance of that small right, thinking about the words that somebody uses, if you can help align and connect around that, I found for myself, that will change a lot of the narrative and the dialogue and allow you to get more directly to the thing that. Uh, you know, you're trying to influence or connect goals on
Kristiana Corona
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So. You see a lot of leaders, you see a lot of creative leaders. Uh, you have worked in the past with a lot of creative leaders. When you think about all of these different areas that we're talking about to level up, what do you think are the biggest opportunities for creative leaders in specific that would really help them level up when it comes to leading at the next level or even interacting with leaders at the next level?
I think there's three things, and I think I would kind of maybe stack them in this order even. Right. So I think there's this, uh, business intelligence. So how do you understand what your, you know, company or the product you're working on, how do they make money? How are they? You know, driving forward from a performance perspective, you have to really understand that whole kind of facet of your organization from like the operations behind the scenes to the outcomes that they're trying to jot.
And I think this is one of the biggest gaps that I see for creative leaders, right? Especially as you get in and you, uh, you, we care oftentimes very deeply about the experience or the customer's needs and how they're feeling and, and thinking, and. That stuff is all absolutely very critical, and it's a very different; you can be a very big differentiator, but if you cannot understand the business side of things and connect those two together, unfortunately, almost every creative leader will fail in that regard.
And so that business kind of intelligence or acumen is a really part of that. The other two kind of areas that I think often are a lot about is kind of that creative intelligence and that emotional intelligence, right? So creative intelligence being more about that capacity to be kind of intellectually flexible and innovative, and as we all know, hundreds of ways to solve any particular problem, and how you get there is just as important as the problem you're trying to solve.
And then there's that emotional side of it, right? So are we aware of, and can we control and express our emotions and handle and create, and build those interpersonal relationships, right? And be empathetic and authentic and all those things. Uh, so I think of it as kind of like this trifecta of what a leader needs to be really good at.
And that business space though is one that, uh, that. A lot of creative leaders probably have the most opportunity in, for some reason, it seems like an elusive area where they either gloss over, and they're like, Ugh, how do I, how do I get all of this data, all these metrics, or it seems like the excuse I often hear is, that's not my job.
You know, that's product. That's so and so, that's our data analyst. You know, that's their job. But I think to your point, if we're really thinking holistically about impact and we think about being owners of the experience, and really showing up an owner of a business knows their numbers. They all know their numbers.
They don't have to go back and do research on it. It's like you're constantly in there saying, is what we're doing working? And if what we're doing isn't working, then we should be advocating for something else anyway. Um, and so it's, it's like, yeah, you can't be in a bubble. You can't be disconnected from what is actually happening within the business.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. And so many of the decisions that. We need to drive from a creative or an experienced perspective, have to make sense for the business. Right. And I think that's the part that I've seen over the course of the years a lot of leaders fail at, is that if you're only worried about the experience aspect and you don't take into account is that it makes sense from a financial perspective, or is that even technically feasible? You know, that's a really easy way to discredit yourself from even being invited into more of those conversations in the future. And so, I think it's challenging, right? As you know, designers come up through the ranks myself.
Like that's not something that any program teaches. It's rarely something that companies and design leaders, uh, at least until recently, have started to talk about. And so when you look, think about, and look at where do you go to learn these things, the number of resources in that regard is very small, right?
And so I think there's a lot that people in, uh, leadership level positions, especially creative and design, need to be, you know, kind of thinking about from the future and how do we set people up for success in that regard.
Kristiana Corona
I know you do personally do a lot of like focus training and asking these deeper questions to people on your own team to say like, what is the business of design?
How are we showing up in that way? Do you have any recommendations for people who aren't on your team of how they could start getting this business acumen for themselves?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on the organization that you're in, but one of the things that, uh, I would encourage everybody to do is, uh, you know, just start, go ask the questions, right?
If you work for, with product teams, find out. How they think about their P & L and the different features, and how they attach value to some of those features and functionality. You know, and I think sometimes it can be, uh, a little scary to ask some of those questions because it makes us feel like, oh my gosh, I, maybe I should know this, or, you know, this puts this other person in a position above me.
Um, but I can tell you from my own experience when you ask those questions. The engagement and the desire to share those insights and those learnings has been huge. Right? And actually, I think for a lot of designers, it will change the perception that partners have of you, right? You, they now see you as someone who wants to care about the same things that they care about, and so they will gladly share those things. Um, I think back to a time in my career where I kind of asked, uh, a product partner some of these things, and, you know, within a couple weeks as we had some of these conversations, they started to show up on my doorstep with.
Here's the thing I think you should know, right? Here's a data point, here's an insight that, uh, might help you. And so as that conversation, you know, transpired even over the course of a few weeks, it really changed the relationship that I had and the dynamic that we had. And so it's something that I think.
You can easily start just by asking questions of the partners and the peers that you work with.
Kristiana Corona
I love that story because I think it underlines the importance of the relationship. So where maybe some people see this as a checkbox, like, oh, I have to go do a thing, check this. Like what you're saying is it's so much more than that.
It's so much more about building that trust, building the influence, building the equity with the team that you're all in. You care, you know, the importance of their work and what they bring to the table. And when you show up that way, it's reciprocated more often, right? Like people come back and say, oh, you know, I'm gonna ask questions about design.
I don't feel dumb anymore because they're asking me questions. And now I feel like I can ask whatever the questions are that I don't understand about. This research process or this design jargon that makes no sense to me. Right?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. It's a two-way street. Exactly. And I think the more that you engage and ask those questions, the more that is reciprocated.
And, and I think that just makes the outcomes that we're all after at the end of the day that much stronger, that much more impactful. And yeah, I think it's a, it's a great. Place to start.
Kristiana Corona
So I wanna take us into another topic that is really relevant for leaders. And this comes back to the building the right network.
Kristiana Corona
And so some leaders, you know, find themselves in the middle of management or leadership, or even senior leadership, and they don't have a strong bench of advocacy at the next level. They don't have that person that is speaking on their behalf when they're not in the room. So I'm curious, first of all, like, how did you build that for yourself, and how would you encourage others to start building that network for themselves?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. You know, I think about this in a couple different ways. One, uh, as I think about like this idea of mentorship, advocacy, one way that I kind of. Stopped looking at it as I'm looking, I'm not looking for this magical, uh, unicorn of a person who can show me the way for every single thing, right?
Instead, I've really started to break it down into what are the particular things that I want to grow or instill in myself, and who does that, uh, well around me, and then how do I learn from them? Just that one thing. Right. And it changes for me. What it changed is the, I think the significance or the, you know, even the sense of like overwhelm, that's like, oh my gosh, how am I gonna learn all of these things, and I've gotta come prepared with, you know, these big agendas.
And if I'm not, uh, showing up in the most executive level way, are they gonna take me seriously? And so, uh, I've noticed that when you show up and you ask somebody, Hey. I recognize, you know that you're really good at this particular thing. How could you help me learn that? Right? They're really willing to dive in deep to that one particular skill or attribute that you wanna learn.
And so that's one way that I've thought about some of the skill building, the raising my own bar, so to speak. Uh, and then I think as you kind of called out like somebody speaking on behalf of you, right when you're not in the room. A lot of that, I think, I've been able to build upon those small relationships that I started around a particular skill, and as I've kind of gotten to know those people on an individual level, you have to be vulnerable about it, right?
You have to share some of those. Things that you're trying to grow or develop or the goals, the things that you're really, you know, after, at the end of the day. And that's a way that I think they can start to care for you at a human level, which is really where that advocacy begins to happen, right? So, um, it's not that they know that Caleb's a designer or Caleb's trying to drive these things forward for a business, but they know why I want to drive those things forward, and they know why I wanna think about that next career opportunity. Uh, and they want to know, they know why I actually am interested in growing that skill. And so. It takes some of that vulnerability to open up and talk about those things.
And I can say that, you know, as you go up the levels, so to speak, it becomes harder to do that. And it's probably a little less rare for executives to have that openness, that vulnerability. But when you do like the outcome, the dividend of what gets, you know, kind of paid back is, is far greater. So it's, it's hard in the moment to have that transparency behind it, but it's paid off for me at least.
Kristiana Corona
I love the point that you made about the way you approach people and not making it a general statement of, can you be my mentor? Can you teach me everything? But really, finding that one thing, what is that one thing you wanna learn?
And then finding someone else that has a one thing that is really phenomenal in a different area, and being able to have that sort of coalition, almost that is on your side. And also I think. Yeah. Back to the way you are clear about giving and receiving feedback. Also, being clear about your intentions, right?
Kristiana Corona
This is what I want in my career, this is what I'm working on developing. And sometimes we don't just come out and say it.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. And it, and I think the other benefit too is that it forces, um, me to think about and reflect on what are those things that I want and what is that next step for me and what is that next skill that I am trying to, you know, to elevate.
And I think, you know, we've all had those. Experiences where you've either mentored or been a mentee, and it's like what you asked the individual, what do you want out of it? And it's, you know, a pretty broad blanket statement. And it's like, okay, well, you know, what do I do with that? Right. How do I help you?
And so I think that's my own kind of also iteration and kind of learning is like, okay, if that broadness doesn't. Connect or work in a lot of situations. How do I get very specific about my ask, and I think the other kind of thing that I've people wanna help you, right? And so I've never ever been turned down when I've asked someone for this type of help.
In fact, it, it's almost like you, you see them light up with a different level of energy and joy and uh, you know, when you can be that direct about what you're looking for and what you appreciate and recognize in their strength, they come at that conversation with so much more than I think you ever would get if you're just show up to say, would you mentor me? Right. In that broad sense,
Kristiana Corona
Well, there's inherently a compliment in there.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona
I think you're really great at this thing, and I wanna learn how to do it from you. Yeah. That's gotta make anybody feel good, but. To your point, you're making it easier for them to advocate for you.
You're making it easy, like the entire process. You're just honing it in, making it easy for them to know how to help you be successful, um, and to advocate on your behalf, which I think is, is really powerful.
Caleb Schmidt
And I think there's, there's another thing here too, just around the scalability of, of this, right?
So when you build those types of relationships with multiple people, and it's easier to do as you focus on particular things from each individual. By the, you know, by the end of it, you've got a network of, or a coalition as you described it, right? As of advocates versus just one individual. And so as we experience change and you move around in an organization, right, like you can then begin to tap on this larger network of advocates versus just one or two,
Kristiana Corona
I think that's brilliant. I'd love that, ma. Taking mental notes. Alright, you talked about vulnerability, and I think that's a really important topic, and alongside that is sort of this idea of imposter syndrome. And a lot of leaders feel imposter syndrome, that you know, they're placed in situations they're not comfortable with or not familiar with, and suddenly you're thinking about like, I'm the only one in the room who maybe isn't ready for this or doesn't have what I need. And so I'm just curious about your own experience, um, if you've ever felt that a creep in, in the executive circles that you've been a part of, and how did you handle it?
Caleb Schmidt
Absolutely. Yes. I think that's a very real feeling. Right? And in fact, uh, I had a, you know, experience of this myself just even a few weeks ago as I was engaged with a big network of, of my own peers and was listening to some of the things that, uh, you know, my peers have accomplished and we're pursuing and pushing forward in their organizations and. You know, I was just kind of, was met with this, you know, wave of this for myself, right?
And, um, you know, I think it, for many, it's kind of like one of those taboo topics that's not talked about in enough circles. And I think some people see it as almost an even a sign of weakness. But I think it's honestly a very human, uh, emotion. Everybody feels this. At some point, no matter your role, no matter your experience, uh, if you're honest with yourself, right?
Like, we've all felt this. And I think one, just putting it in that own, in that perspective and in that lens can change the way that. You think about it for yourself. Right. And the other thing that I do for myself when I feel that is I reflect on it. I don't avoid confronting it. It's, you know, hard to do in the moment, right?
But if you go deep enough and you really sit with it and you kind of uncover what's that root cause, I think you can figure out. You can do differently the next time that you feel that wave come over you. And, uh, you know, I, I did this for myself just with the recent experience that I mentioned, and I thought about like, okay.
Why am I here? Why am I in this role? What are some of those things that I'm gonna remind myself of the next time that I begin to feel that way? And after I walked through that process for myself, I came back with a list of things that was like, okay, I've got validation for. You know, the impact that I've had on teams that I've led, or the company that I'm in, or the customers and clients that I support, right?
I know why people believe in me for this role. I know that I show up in a certain way to lead, and so I think that you can change that narrative for yourself by just confronting some of those feelings more head on.
Kristiana Corona
So you had that whole list of evidence. It was just pausing long enough to go back and think about it.
And say, oh yeah, that's right. Uh, here's my game. Here's the game I'm playing, and here's what I've done with that.
Caleb Schmidt
That's exactly it. But yeah, don't avoid it. Like it's that's the easy thing to do, right, is to bury it [00:42:00] down, walk away, pretend that it never happened. But those things just keep cropping back up. Right. Until you kind of meet it head on.
Kristiana Corona
Well, and to me, it's a sign that you are continually leveling yourself up. If you're too comfortable that you never show up in a room and feel challenged or feel like you know, you're being pushed to the next level to do something that's a little scary, maybe you're not pushing yourself to grow enough.
And so I love that you know, you're in these circumstances with people who are a players. They're, they're showing up as A-players and you're like, Ooh, I better show up as an A-player too. Okay? What's my best game that I'm playing here? And when you see it as this sort of joint exercise of everyone is leveling each other up rather than comparison, not enoughness, why am I in the room, but rather I have this opportunity to be in this room full of incredible people.
What am I gonna bring of value to them? What am I going to learn of value from them? And I just love that, you know, you have those groups that you can be a part of, that you come to the table and then the next time you show up, you do show up better because of that.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristiana Corona
So, okay, just to kind of wrap us up on some of these topics, I'm just curious what would be kind of the single most important piece of advice on how someone can prepare for the executive level?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, a couple things that I would probably say. One, it's never going to be easy, and the path is never going to be straightforward and super clear in front of you. So I think it requires that you have to have grit. And resilience even to, uh, stick with it. Right? And especially when that time isn't going the way that you thought it might or the you're getting challenged and pushed back on things, and that, you know, requires you.
Get up and you do it all over again the next day, and you show up and you have that positive outlook, and you look for the thing that you can learn and you show up to learn and to grow from that thing. Right? And then I would say the other thing is, uh, and I recently just had a chance to talk about this with a lot of my team around this idea of intentional evolution, right?
So when you are confronted with change, and change is increasing more and more for all of us. How do you leverage that? How do you harvest that to create your own future? Right? Shape your own path? Um, I think I see a lot of, uh, you know, leaders and people who are on this. Our desire to be on this executive path, wait for instruction, or wait for something to be, you know, given to them in, in the sense of, now go do this thing.
And I can tell you from sitting in an executive-level seat like that is rarely ever given to you. Uh, and you have to kind of figure out what's that right path and how am I gonna navigate those things? Uh, so take that kind of moment of change and, and use it to shape kind of the future in the direction that you believe is the right path.
And then, uh, you know, then back to some of the things that we talked about. How do you communicate and, and set that as a vision so that other people see that path alongside.
Kristiana Corona
I love that it's much more about, again, you bringing the value to the table to show what is possible and what would happen if they were to elevate you to that role versus coming at it from an entitlement standpoint.
I deserve this role. I should get this role. I've had X amount of time, you know, at this level, I deserve to be the next level. Well. The best way to show that is through the value that you bring, right?
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. Demonstrate that you belong there and demonstrate that you have something more to add, and how that changes the outcome that everyone's after. And I think you'll see that, that seat at the table, so to speak, uh, change in a pretty big way.
Kristiana Corona
I also feel like what you were saying about change. Like harnessing the change and seeing that as an opportunity for yourself to level up and showcase what you can do in a different way. There may be other people who are afraid of it, uh, who don't know what to think of it.
And if you can be the one that's bold, that dives in, that starts learning, that starts trying new things that others aren't trying. Pretty soon, people start coming to you and seeing you as that go-to expert, right? So there's tons of opportunity right now, especially with AI, but even just everything that is in transformation digitally, I think there are always opportunities for us to bring big and new thinking to the table.
Kristiana Corona
And I know that is absolutely what you and the team are doing at US Bank.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. Absolutely.
Kristiana Corona
Well, I'm so grateful for you coming in today. This was a really fun conversation, and just getting to hear your perspectives on what it actually looks like to level up. Before we wrap up, I wanna just do a really quick rapid-fire round of questions for you, just for people to get to know you a little bit better.
So, first question is, are you an early bird or are you a night owl?
Caleb Schmidt
I used to be a night owl, but the older I get, the more I am an early bird, and I've actually found a lot of joy in those quiet moments, uh, by myself in the mornings.
Kristiana Corona
And you live in an absolutely gorgeous place in Colorado, so I understand why you..
Caleb Schmidt
Yes. Colorado doesn't, uh, doesn't make that any worse, for sure.
Kristiana Corona
Um, okay. Uh, a book you have recommended most recently.
Caleb Schmidt
Hmm. Uh, outcomes over output is one, uh, that I have bought for some of my leaders, some of my partners. And it's really about, uh, how do you stop thinking about feature factory mentality and putting lots of features in the people's hand, but how actually solving real problems.
It's a really fantastic but short read so it's easy [00:48:00] for people to, you know, sit down in an hour. You kind of. Take some insight and learning from.
Kristiana Corona
Love it. We will definitely link to that in our show notes. Okay. A leader you deeply admire.
Caleb Schmidt
Uh, one of my previous leaders, his name is Carl Roberts. Uh, he is, he probably doesn't even recognize how much impact he had on me, but he was really one of the leaders when I first moved from agency to in-house that helped me understand kind of that importance of business acumen and how to go about, uh, communicating at that, like board and executive level. Um, so he's probably one that, uh, I would point to
Kristiana Corona: Amazing. Everybody needs that person.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah. It's a game-changer, right? Like, and, and it's, it's funny how, uh, some of those leaders don't even know the level of impact they've had on, on people around them.
Kristiana Corona
Well, shout out. Shout out to him for sure. Okay. Favorite way to recharge after a long day?
Caleb Schmidt
I think for me it's actually cooking in the kitchen. Uh, it's become, uh, my creative outlet, right. And it's, uh, it's been a little bit of my kind of transition between work and personal time, and it brings people together, family together.
And at the end of the day, you get to eat something delicious. So how could you not like it?
Kristiana Corona
What do you like to cook?
Caleb Schmidt
Anything and everything, but I love Italian food.
Kristiana Corona
Hmm. Yeah, that's extra fun to make too.
Caleb Schmidt
It is making your own pasta. There's something, uh, very, uh, refreshing and relaxing about that.
Kristiana Corona: Oh my gosh. That sounds good. Um, alright, last question. Um, years from now, when people talk about your leadership, what do you want them to remember about you?
Caleb Schmidt
Ooh, good one. I want them to remember me as a leader who was empathetic and supportive and kind and, uh, really push them to be the best that they. That they possibly could. And uh, you know, even in the moments when that wasn't easy to do, that's kind of, uh, the way that I would want somebody to think about me in the future.
Kristiana Corona
I love that. And I will just say, speaking for an audience of one, that is most certainly true.
Caleb Schmidt
Well, thank you.
Kristiana Corona
All right, so if my listeners would like to hear more about you or connect with you, where should they go?
Caleb Schmidt
Come find me on LinkedIn, uh, is probably the place I am most active publicly.
Kristiana Corona
That sounds good. Alright, well, thank you again for coming on the show. It was so wonderful to talk to you and can't wait to have you back again.
Caleb Schmidt
Yeah, thank you. Enjoyed the conversation. It was great.
