Meg Rentschler:
Learned helplessness the way it looks in an organization. I can't make a move without my leader approving that. Well, what does that do? That creates a bottleneck and it stifles my innovation because I don't feel that I have the permission or the wiggle room to bring my own brilliance to the table.
Kristiana Corona:
Ever feel like everyone else has leadership figured out and you're just making it up as you go? I've been there. I spent two decades leading design and technology teams at Fortune 500 companies, and for years, I looked like I had everything pulled together on the outside, but on the inside I felt burned out, overwhelmed, and unworthy of the title leader.
Then a surprise encounter with executive coaching changed my life and dramatically improved my leadership style and my results. Now I help others make that same shift in their leadership. This podcast is where we do the work, building the mindset, the coaching skills, and the confidence to lead with clarity and authenticity, and to finally feel worthy to lead from the inside out.
Hello and welcome back to The Worthy To Lead podcast. I'm your host, Kristiana Corona, and I'm so glad you decided to join us for today. I have an amazing guest with me. Her name is Meg Rentschler. Welcome to the show, Meg. Thank you. So good to be here. So for today, we're actually gonna be diving into a super interesting topic, um, that we talk about all the time with leaders.
We don't always use these words, but I think it's this idea of, as a leader, feeling like you really need to help people and you need to give them solutions and you need to, you know, lift them out of whatever problems that they have. And Meg likes to talk about this in terms of learn. Helplessness. And what's super interesting in her background is about how she uses coaching to really help people break out of that cycle and find a new way to lead.
So Meg Rentschler is an executive coach. She is a mentor coach and a former psychotherapist, which I think plays a lot into what she brings to this field. And she's the host of the Star Coach Show. So definitely check that podcast out. With more than three decades of experience, Meg has helped leaders across industries to shift from solving and directing their teams to empowering and developing their teams.
So her work sits in the intersection of psychology and coaching and leadership and helping people move from, tell me what to do into, I can figure this out. And I actually had the joy of meeting Meg when I went to the University of Texas, Dallas to Jindle School of Management, which is where I learned and went through their executive coaching program.
And so just quick shout out to UTD. They're really amazing. And Meg is just this wonderful, wonderful educator that really changed the trajectory of my career in many ways. So. Thankful for that. Some of the topics we're gonna dive into today are about why teams begin relying too heavily on their leader to solve problems, to think for them and to make all of the decisions and how well-intentioned leaders accidentally disempower their teams without really knowing it.
And you know, what is really the difference between helping and enabling. And how coaching helps them to build ownership and to build that confidence and that resilience across their team, which is something that we all need these days. So Meg has a really interesting perspective. I've always appreciated how she brings this deep emotional intelligence as well as this background in therapy and coaching expertise to help people see things differently and help train leaders on how to do coaching.
So anyway, with all of that preamble, I just wanna say welcome to the show, Meg. So glad to have you here.
Meg Rentschler:
Thank you so much for having me and for the lovely introduction. You are spot on that this is something that. Is an absolute passion of mine and I am honored that you invited me here to talk to everyone about how they can be a really empowering leader, because isn't that what we want?
We want to be able to do the heavy lifting together, and yet in inadvertently, sometimes I think we set the stage so that's not what happens. And then we're exhausted and thinking like, how am I gonna do everybody's job and my own? And that's not what we want for anybody.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. I feel like a lot of people are gonna resonate with that and there's just such a sense of like, I have to do this right? Like a lot of leaders feel they have to like that is the job. But I think what you're gonna share is going to kind of debunk that a little bit and say maybe, maybe you're doing too much work on some of that. Maybe there's some work here where your team can actually empower themselves.
So before we dive into that topic, I would just love if you could share just. A little about your journey and maybe how you went from therapy into coaching and now into coaching leaders in many ways. What was that journey like? Thank you.
Meg Rentschler:
So as you mentioned, I was a psychotherapist. I was a psychotherapist in private practice for over 20 years, and I was working with a lot of employee assistance programs in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and.
What I was noticing was that the people that were coming to see me for therapy were often coming to see me for therapy because their work environments were so dysfunctional. So they were either being asked to lead because they were a great individual contributor, and so they were promoted. So good for them.
But just because I'm good at doing this particular job doesn't mean that I know how to lead. So since I believe that people really want to do the best they can do and who doesn't wanna kind of show up, shining in whatever role that they're in. We need to give them the tools to be able to lead. So I was seeing these leaders coming into therapy because they felt inadequate.
They felt like I don't know how to lead people, or I had clients who were being led by people who were obviously not trained in how to lead or, um. You know, just workplaces that were not set up to create healthy, thriving environments for human beings to work in. So after a while, I started to feel drained.
From that, I felt reactive to a situation that, you know, I think that therapy is an incredibly needed and important conversation. I am, uh, in awe of and very appreciative of the therapists in the world that are out there doing that very heavy lift work. I also felt after that 20 plus years, that it was time for me to think about how I could respond to what I was seeing in a different way.
And so I did some research and I began to look around and it, this was the early two thousands. Coaching was not as well known as it is now. These past 25 years have really, uh, expanded the profession. But I did find executive coaching and thought, what if I could go into organizations and help leaders feel.
Like they were stepping into a place of lifting their team all together. That everybody was doing that together to learn how to communicate in a way that people really felt listened to and appreciated, 'cause we know that when people feel seen and heard and are able to give their gifts in the workplace, they're that much more engaged and excited to be there.
So, I found executive coaching. I also found the UTD program and was in one of the early cohorts at UTD and then this passion of I'm gonna help create healthier work environments. That was like my whole, I'm gonna like leave therapy, go into coaching. I had a couple year transition where I did both.
Then as I was graduating from the University of Texas at Dallas, I was invited onto the faculty. So that was not on my radar. I think sometimes opportunities open up in front of you that you didn't even know you were looking for. I created a cognitive coaching course with this delightful other, uh, executive coach Ann Schuster, and, and for a couple years we taught it together and then she went on to do other things and I taught.
But the point in that being that when you. Want to, you have this passion and, and my vision was let's create healthier work environments for people. Well, I could do at one time, you know, I could go into organizations, Meg, each time. Yet I had this opportunity open in front of me. What if you trained other coaches and then the, the multiplication effect, right?
So I've had the delight of teaching at UTD since 2009, which means I have now trained, I think over 2000 coaches. So think of the ripple effect of that. And now are all of those organizational leadership or executive coaches? Not all, but the vast majority since it's an executive coaching program. So that is sort of, I just want everyone to be on the lookout for when is an opportunity presented to you that you might not have thought was what you were looking for or, but just explore it and think.
How could this potentially help me with my overall journey? And that's certainly what being an instructor at UTD did. And then I get to meet beautiful people like you.
Kristiana Corona:
So I love that particular example from the standpoint of knowing your mission. Like you knew the end goal of where you wanted to be in the impact you wanted to have, but the way you got there, the path that you took to get there ended up looking different than what you thought.
Much more wonderful and much broader impact than potentially it would have otherwise. And I think that's just so wonderful. And, and how often do we get stuck in that, that vision of this is how it's got to be, this is the path I need to take, this is the corporate ladder I need to climb to reach this goal and this organization and how often that doesn't happen.
And you know, we let it derail us and. Oh, I didn't get that promotion or I didn't get to this level at that company or whatever. But there can be something so beautiful and being open to life's opportunities that are brought your way, which might be so much better than what you originally had in mind.
Meg Rentschler:
Exactly. Which is kind of ironic, Kristiana, isn't it? 'cause that's what we say as coaches also like get out of the way. Let the client explore what their path is. It's gonna be so much better probably than anything you could have come up with for them. And it's the same kind of thing. Sometimes our own thoughts are the biggest obstacle in us creating the kind of life and impact we wanna have.
Kristiana Corona:
Well, on that note, let's dive into that idea of, you know, where leaders maybe are thinking that they need to over architect things or, or that they need to control things, when really maybe their team has actually got more answers and empowerment than, than they think.
And so you talk about this term called learned helplessness, and I would just love, could you define it for us and what do you mean by learned helplessness?
Meg Rentschler:
So when I trained leaders in this very concept. I often start with a visualization for them. A visualization of baby elephants. And often elephants in captivity are trained from a very young age.
They are shackled around one of their legs, and that is attached to a stake in the ground. And they're we, and they can't move that stake. So they're stuck in that place. Now I have to say I shared this thinking that people are pretty much aware of this. I mean, as it's kind of out and a lady started crying in the training.
She was so upset thinking about these baby elephants. It is a horrible thing, but it's also a very good example of learned helplessness because they pull and they struggle and they try to get away from that stake and they learn that they can't as a baby elephant. And then you'll see grown, full-grown elephants in captivity staked with a rope around their leg to a stake in the ground. And you're thinking they could easily just pull that and walk away. But they learned that helplessness they're there was a pattern of learned behavior from a very young age that I can't move this stake. So let's shift now.
Let's take that visualization into how. It happens in the workplace. You talked about the fact that, as leaders, we want our teams to thrive. We want to meet goals, we wanna meet expectations. And often, especially for those leaders who are sandwiched between. The top leaders and their team and they've got a sort of answer to everybody.
They feel a lot of pressure, and time is always of a factor. So we're just, just do it my way. Just do it like I'm gonna create an answer for everything. Or what ends up happening is a pattern of behavior where. My team doesn't feel that they have the safety or the really the permission to bring their own brilliance to the table.
They have to check in. I've got to make sure that the leader's okay with this. I've got to get an answer from the leader. I've got to get the stamp of approval. Now everything is a balance, right? Of course, we wanna help teach and guide our team to. What the expectations are, but as we have pointed out earlier, there are many different paths towards the same or even a better solution sometimes.
So learned helplessness, the way it looks in an organization, I can't make a move without. My leader approving that. Well, what does that do? That creates a bottleneck, and that creates, and it stifles my creativity, or it's, it stifles my innovation because I don't feel that I have the permission or the wiggle room to bring my own brilliance to the table.
Kristiana Corona:
That really resonates. I don't know if I was nodding hard enough, uh, for that part, but I feel like those are literally the conversations that we have every single day with leaders who are kind of in that mid to senior level, where they're in the middle of that sandwich and they're, they're having to perform upwards, perform downwards, get buy-in from stakeholders, like there's just so much checking in layers of approval.
I think a lot of organizations do it out of trying to scale effectively and trying to make things repeatable so that you know, everything is reliable. However, I mean, humans within that system are creative. And they need the flexibility to experiment. They need the flexibility to be able to try things that aren't going to work, learn from those failures, and then bring those failures forward into doing a better solution next time.
And so, like for example, I'm from sort of the tech world, the design and technology world, where it is entirely about experimentation. You're constantly evolving things, and so just the dynamic or the mindset that's needed for that needs to be kind of free, right? The more check-ins, approvals, layers, you know, not only does it slow things down, but it stifles that ability to say, what if I don't have to worry about anyone's opinion inside, and I can do what's right for the customer, and I can continue to advocate and push for what is actually right for the customer?
What is gonna make their experience better? Because inevitably then that creates a great product that people want. Right. Absolutely. So as we think about some of these situations, you know, where maybe the culture itself is dictating this layer of five to seven approvals to get anything out the door, like what are you recommending to leaders or, or how are you helping to shift that when you think about wanting to have the impact on the, the overall culture, if it really is one of those very systemic, top down, hierarchical places?
Meg Rentschler:
It's my belief that even in that, I get that people are pressed for time, and if the story we tell ourselves is I don't have time to be curious, I don't have time to invite my team into the solution. I don't have time to. Stop and create a solution together. I just have to give the answers. What I would challenge the leaders to think about is, yes, that might feel most time effective at the moment, and there are those times where the house is on fire, and we just need to put out the house fire.
I totally get that. There are also times that inviting our team into the discussion. If Sam comes up to me and says, Meg, I need to know how to do X, Y, and z. Slowing down enough to ask a couple of questions. Sam, what have you already thought about? What's the solution you're looking for? What kinds of conversations have you already had around this?
Like invite in some conversation. What's that gonna do? That's gonna begin to stimulate Sam's Gray matter, and Sam has a brain, Sam has thoughts and experiences, and is in his job for a reason. So I think that when we get caught in the belief, I don't have time to leverage my team's brilliance. What we're ultimately doing is key.
Creating a pattern that we are the only person who can bring the solution, can bring the answer. And what that creates long-term is exhausted, overwhelmed, burn out leaders. So another example I'll sometimes use with the leaders I work with is I'm a, I'm one of nine children. My mom and dad, but I'm thinking of like sort of in this house that we had to operate and function in.
My mom did an incredible job teaching each one of us to be very responsible in the home, in doing our chores, in doing, and it wasn't if I did a halfway job on something. I would get called back and told to do it again. And if I had to get called back and told to do and she would show me, but then I would do so ultimately, was that a lot of time, would it have been quicker for her to pick up the broom and sweep the floor herself Probably than to teach Margaret Mary to do it again and again and again?
Yes. And yet that time that she invested in helping each one of us learn to do things responsibly. Paid off for her in the long run. 'cause in the long run she raised responsible adults who went forward to, well first of all that her house was then we were all able to kind of help keep this house running and my dad, you know, helped the farm run and all those kinds of things.
So yes. Is there more time at the front end? There is, but it pays off in the long run. And in that, when we invite people into their greatness, 'cause every single person on every single team is there for a reason. And not everybody is in the right seat of the right bus. Thank you Jim Collins for that. But I mean, you know, so from good to great for anybody.
But in that, even if we trust that people are in their positions for a reason and begin to invite them into. What are their thoughts about a particular thing? What is the result they're looking for? What have they tried? What else could they try? When we begin a people, as I said earlier, feel seen, heard, appreciated, and that their gifts matter, and as the leader, I begin to help people step into being creative beings who have gifts to offer and they begin to contribute and be a part of and see the vision. So we have shared vision and, and we, you know, yes, the leader models the way towards that, but also gets the heck out of the way. So other people can be innovative as well. So very truthfully, I just got all like, excited about that.
And I'm not positive that I answered your question.
Kristiana Corona:
You did, you did. I was gonna call out a couple things about what you said, which is just the, the dynamic or the vibe on a team where someone starts treating their job as a leader with coaching versus. And how much trust that creates. Like you said, how people feel seen and heard.
And it is remarkable how, I mean, it's kind of sad how rare that is, but just being able to show up in that way and ask their thoughts instead of immediately resorting to an answer feels. Different and it feels like, oh, this person cares what I think this person cares, that I have ideas and they're willing to listen and let me share those things.
And in the more times you get that positive affirmation of, oh, you have good ideas and actually a couple of your ideas here, we should actually pursue those that creates that nice virtuous cycle of this person trusts me.
Meg Rentschler:
Not only does it trust me, but like I'm like here to, I have something to offer because if we don't feel like we are contributing if all we're doing is following orders without any kind of contribution. Particularly with this newest generation, they're, they wanna contribute. They wanna like be seen and heard and contribute and, and be valued. Which is why when we do these things, when I say these things, listen, ask, invite people into their contribution.
It builds confidence, like, oh, I don't have to, before I blow my nose, ask like, you know, if it's okay to blow my nose, like I, I can actually step into my space and then I can bring my creativity and I can. So just imagine what that does, ripple effect across the team.
Kristiana Corona:
And I've seen that when people start to believe that their ideas will be heard, they bring much bigger and much bolder ideas to the table.
Because they're not being squashed from the very beginning. Like, oh, this person has an agenda. They're telling me what to do, and therefore there is no space for my big idea. You know? Or maybe they've gotten shot down when those ideas are brought to the table because they're not following the protocol or doing it the way that it should be done.
And I just, I love the virtuous cycle there of like the more space we're giving them to ideate, the more trust we're building and the velocity that's creating at the end of the day, you get. Better ideas. You get bigger ideas, people pursue those ideas, and you don't have to do anything. It's not adding more work to your plate.
It's like this was always there and now it can be uncovered. In a different way. Yeah.
Meg Rentschler:
And I also wanna acknowledge that that can be scary, right? So we talked about the pressure that leaders are under, and if I've done something a particular way and have gotten the result that I wanted, it can be scary to say.
Well, let's give room for a different way to be tried or it can be. So what ends up happening inadvertently, I think really good leaders who have positive intention end up using this thing called the writing reflex, and that's R-I-G-H-T-I-N-G. So it's writing like, let me set this right, let me do, so if Sam brings me an idea and it's not exactly what I thought, I write it, I correct it, I make it what?
I thought versus what's the possibility in Sam's idea. So we can, by writing it, by tweaking it, by making it our own every time we can inadvertently squash creativity on our team. So we're not necessarily meaning to be dismissive, but dismissive is what ends up being So then. To your point, I don't feel like I can bring bold ideas.
I don't feel like, because if it's not what Meg's already thought about, it's gonna get squashed and made to fit her vision rather than my vision. And for anybody who's listening who's like, yeah, but Meg, you don't get it. We've got like certain things we've gotta do. We've gotta. I get it. I do get it. And I'm willing to challenge you to think about the fact that there are many paths to greatness and do we always have.
So once again, it's about, I believe that life is all about balance, right? Like when can we and when can't we? And that there's more opportunity to step into innovation and possibility than we give ourselves. That we believe. And so I get it and I'm gonna push back on that a little bit. What are your thoughts about that?
Kristiana Corona:
I love that one because I think people think they're doing the right thing by correcting or putting it, well, that's not exactly how I said to do it. This is how I want you to do it, and it needs to show up X, Y, Z, like very operations. Maybe based thinking or, or rules based thinking. So let's imagine we're in a situation like that where someone brings something to us and we're like, oh, that's not quite right.
How would we use coaching techniques to talk about that or deliver feedback, or what would be the way you would handle that situation differently rather than saying, oh, you got it wrong here, do it this way.
Kristiana Corona:
Such a good question.
Meg Rentschler:
I would encourage everyone to just start with a few questions. If you built the muscle to start with a few open-ended questions versus do you have, you, can you, those are your ideas that you're putting into question form. So if I've given Sam a directive and he's brought me something, uh, I'm gonna say, let's explore what this idea, what are the nuts and bolts of this idea? What's your vision for how this would work?
Like. Ask some questions. What are you thinking that this is gonna result in? Let's explore this under X, Y, and Z criteria. Like let's it look so anytime that we can, even if somebody like is on the fly and asking, like they come up to you, oh, like what should I do about X, Y, and Z? If you can take. 30 seconds to ask a couple questions.
First, your response is gonna be not only a better response, you're not gonna ping pong back and fall. Oh yeah, I've already tried that. What did you, so, you know, yeah, like ask as a leader, the one thing I would say to any leader is build more. Really curious. Open-ended what and how questions into your leadership.
Because what that does is it challenges the other person's brain to engage and makes them think about what is it that they really wanna get out of this? What have they tried? What is important? About this approach to them. What do they see as possible outcomes from that? And then you can certainly add your expertise and say the expectation of the company is ex, because sometimes these great ideas don't fit under the policy umbrella or don't fit under expectation umbrella.
But often we're assuming things without asking. So. The greatest barrier, I think to really solid leadership is assumption. So if we can get rid of assumption by just asking a few questions, and the added benefit of that is that you're challenging the other person to think. And when we challenge people to think, that builds their muscle, their brain muscle, and gets them to begin to realize that they have something to contribute as well. So ask a few questions.
Kristiana Corona:
And I think too, uh, when you think about leaders that have a very specific and deep expertise in something and feeling like they have to hold that back and not use that gem that is there for a reason, I think there are still ways that can show up in a conversation without being a directive.
Right? So being able to make an observation or, or saying, Hey, in my experience, things like this. Sometimes have this failure path. How would you handle that failure path? Things like this tend to not have the result in the first two months. So how would you report that back to leaders to show you're successful if you can't prove that it happens in the next two months?
You know, like there's ways of, I think bringing those things in, but then operating under the assumption that this person is smart enough to figure out the answer to this. You don't have to tell them the answer of like, oh, you should go do that then. But being able to bring in information or perspectives that they may not have thought about and just pitching the ball out there and letting them try and hit it and see how they do.
Meg Rentschler:
Leaders are in their position for a reason. They do have expertise, and it's not just pushing people into the deep end of the pool and saying, hope you can swim. It's the balance of adding the expertise and, and you can actually use your expertise to think about. The potential barriers that might come up or to think about the resources that might be needed and explore what have you already thought about?
Well, you know, in my experience, there's a three month lead time on this particular thing. So how are you gonna handle the three month lead time? Like really challenging the other person to step into that space of being your thought partner. But that doesn't mean that you have to act like you don't know anything.
You're the leader for a reason. But your person is on your team for a reason too.
Kristiana Corona:
And I think the more you're bringing in just facts and observations and things that you know to be true, like, well, we know typically you get about 17 seconds of focus when you go in to have this meeting. So how will you use those se 17 seconds?
Well, what do you want them to get out of this message? How can you clarify the message to make sure those 17 seconds go well? Like that's helpful information. And they may not have thought of that, but it's a very different vibe. And allowing them to wrestle with that and to have the kind of pain of, oh, crap, I didn't think about that.
Shoot, I, I made a 25 page deck. But then letting them struggle with it. And I think that's one of the things too is, is you don't like to see people in pain and you don't like to see people struggling and not knowing the answer. And sometimes it's hard to watch. Sometimes it's hard to see people in that, so what should people be thinking about when someone doesn't get it right away or they don't come to an answer you think is gonna work?
It's not always, it doesn't always feel great to let someone struggle.
Meg Rentschler:
No, it doesn't. And at the same time, I, I would encourage everyone to think about what were your moments of greatest growth? Were they when things just came easily or was it when you really had to stretch? And think and grow. And it doesn't mean that you just have to be like hands off and completely, you know, let people sink or swim if people are, are making really.
Bad decisions based upon what you know to be true about the organization or the need. Christiana gave some beautiful examples of what are some of the ways that you could engage, what are the possible downsides of that decision? What do you see as some barriers that might get in your way? In my experience, we're looking at X, Y, and Z, and as you know, how could we potentially tweak that?
To fit here because the way that it's being presented right now is there's some pieces that won't fit. So the difference is trusting that this other person isn't gonna self combust if they have to think they're not going to, you know, you're not pushing them out of the plane without a parachute.
They're to help lead and mentor them and at the same time. Allow them to explore creative solutions because that's ultimately what's gonna serve them. So when you see somebody struggling and you think, oh, that feels uncomfortable. Think about maybe that it's a workout, that they're just working those muscles and that yet hurts when we're working them.
And yet. What's the result of having those muscles fine tuned and toned? It's a better overall, you know, healthy person. It's not always fun and I hear from, I don't know, Christian, I'm sure that this is not going to surprise you. We hear from, I hear from my clients repeatedly, but they want me to give them the answer and.
I totally get that. If I'm struggling with something, I want the leader to give me the answer or I want like, I don't know. What would you do and, and you might even choose to share. Well, there's several things that, that I've done historically. I would really love to hear what you are already thinking through, because my belief is once I share what I would do, it's gonna cut down any creativity from you.
And yet as a leader, sometimes we are gonna say, well, we could go. Path A, path B, path C. There's pros and cons to each of those. There's gonna be times where you're like, we have to do it this way and at times of the essence, and we're gonna pull the trigger now because there's no one answer in organizations, right?
We have to be flexible. We have to respond to what's in front of us at the moment, and it is my strong belief that we always have the opportunity to. Lean into growth and lean into a little bit of challenge. So we wanna support and challenge as leaders, and in that, there's always an opportunity to ask a couple questions, to challenge them, to think and to contribute.
Because when people co-create the solution with you, when your team feels like. What I said mattered. Even if we went in another direction, what I said mattered, they're gonna be that much more on board with following through with whatever was discussed.
Kristiana Corona:
That was really good. One of the things that I always think about with my team is how are they going to do when I go on vacation?
And something blows up. And I think it's a great barometer for have I let them struggle enough so that when I'm actually out and they have to make these decisions, they're not gonna feel helpless. They're not gonna feel drowning, overwhelmed. So that then I could never go on vacation. And that was actually a thought that I had quite often before I found coaching.
Uh, and I was in a leadership position. I did feel like I was under so much pressure to give all the answers and to have everything exactly right and approved and in the right order. All it does is it just makes you realize, man, I don't have all the answers and I did it in the wrong order, and they're really smart and I should have just asked their opinion first.
And, you know, all of those things. And then I, I just felt like I couldn't ever leave the office. I felt like I couldn't go on vacation because things would just fall apart. And I was such, I had baked myself into that position as such a necessary component that life cannot continue if I have not approved this thing.
And man, the shift that happened after finding coaching and realizing that is completely unnecessary. Like there are a hundred different ways of setting intent and setting vision and setting guidance and talking about like what are some of the scenarios that might come up and how might we handle those ahead of time so we can feel prepared.
But if you never stop to have those conversations. First of all, you're keeping yourself stuck in the job you're in. It's impossible for you to leave because no one can do anything without you. You can't get promoted. You can't win the lottery. Um, you can't be sick and you definitely cannot go on vacation.
Um, or die. You're not even a die. Yeah. No, no. So anyway, I think that it's just a really poignant example of kind of what you're talking about and the, the broad implications, not only for just. Each one-on-one conversation or each project, but also the long term of that person's career, like what they might feel that they're capable of, what they might explore because they've gotten that empowerment.
So I was curious if you have any stories like where you went into an organization and you worked with leaders and you saw like a pretty significant change in. Either the culture or what they were able to deliver because they took a coaching approach? Oh, such a good question.
Meg Rentschler:
I've actually had the honor of working with a very large Fortune 500.
They might be a Fortune 100 company, training over 250 of their leaders to bring. So we're bringing a coaching culture into the organization. So some of the things that I heard right out of the gate when I started the training with the early crew was. Oh my gosh. As you're talking, I realize I'm leaving every one-on-one with my people with a long list of things that I need to do when it's actually they should be leaving with things that they need to do this fear of, but we've got numbers to meet and we've got expectations, and if I do what?
We're talking about doing. I just don't see that that's gonna create the kind of impact that, that, or is gonna keep my team online. But this is what I've said,'cause now I've had the opportunity to be with this organization for about three years now, and right away out of the gate from that very first 5,000 leaders that were trained, people started staying.
You know, they had a huge issue with people leaving, well, that's an expense. You bring people in, you onboard them, and then they leave. That's so expensive. So people began to stay. And what happens when people stay, they get good at doing their job. And, and so you get past that first clunky period and people get where they're actually doing a great job.
So results went way up and it was a sales team. So the sales went way up. The leaders began to have time to do their strategic thinking and their jobs because they had the expectation that. Not only that people were gonna do their jobs, but that they didn't have to do all the thinking for the people.
And so what they started to hear from their teams is how much more engaged they were and how much more excited they were and how they were a part of the solution. And that sell such ownership in that. And what's really interesting is in this particular situation. It is a unit of a very large company and.
The parent company started to say, what's going on over there? What are they doing that is creating such results that they were a shining beacon in the whole organization. And it was because they brought in a coaching approach for their leaders. And what I heard repeatedly and I continue to hear is I've never really been trained on how to be a great leader, so I've just brought in whatever I figured would work, and a lot of that was just what's made me successful. But what's made me successful might not be what's gonna make Jenny and Tom and Sam successful. And so I am now thinking differently when I engage in conversations.
When people come to me with their hair on fire, I. Take a deep breath and say, what do you most wanna get from me right now? What is gonna be most useful for you versus me just assuming and jumping in? What have you already thought about? What are you wanting to achieve in this situation? What is holding back, you know, like what are you telling yourself that's keeping you from being confident in this situation? So like they begin to ask questions, and what they're seeing is that now when people come to them. They're coming to them with some ideas for solutions rather than just fix it. Could you fix it now? Is that gonna happen?
Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes the house is on fire and we've gotta pull out our fire hydrant there, or yeah, our fire extinguisher or whatever tool we're using at the moment. However, what's happening and what I see, not just in that organization but with. The leaders I work with as a whole is, oh my gosh, when I'm inviting people into the conversation, it's changing the whole flavor of people feeling like they are contributors rather than they're just worker bees.
Kristiana Corona:
That's an amazing story when you think about the organizational impact that, that whoever the leader was that took the brave choice to say, we're gonna bring coaching into this organization. We're gonna try this. And man, that can have such a ripple effect across the entire company when people start to see the results shifting.
Right? Or what is this team doing? This team's on fire and. One of the things that always stood out to me when you were talking about the conversation shift, like the one-on-ones, they really change from, I'm worried about this conversation, what should I do? Two, Hey, I have this really tough conversation coming up.
Here's how I'm thinking about approaching it. I'm worried this approach won't work. Does it feel like I'm on track? Like that conversation is very, very different because first of all, they've thought about it. They've thought about what the risks are. You know, you can tell they've thought the situation through and they're just looking for.
Like, am I on track? Yes. No, not tell me what to say. How should I do it? When should I talk to them? It's, I know 95% of what I need here. I just need to know if I'm missing something or if I'm a little off track, or if you, you see any risks and how joyful to be brought a situation like that. Or you can be like, no, you're great. You're on track. Or you know, that's great.
Meg Rentschler:
One of the other things that comes up for me is A, B, C. How you know, is that useful? If so, you know how, how could you see weaving that in? So once again, it's not that being a leader who uses coaching means that you never bring your expertise to the table. You never lead.
Of course you do. That's what it's all about. They're looking to you for a reason, and I believe that often they're looking to you saying, could you fix it for me? You could, you know, it's that whole, you could fix it for 'em, and then the next time they're gonna come and they're, they're gonna need you to fix it again.
So at what point do you believe in them enough to say, I believe that you've got this, let's fix it together. What have you thought about already? What do you. Believe might be a path you wanna move forward with this. I don't know. I want you to tell me, well, you know what? I believe that you do know. I believe that you at least have thought through some things, and even if you don't feel like there are ideas that hold water, let's just discuss 'em.
Let's just throw out some ideas and begin to create a plan together because your ideas do matter. And people aren't used to hearing that. No.
Kristiana Corona:
No, they're not. And what I love so much about what you just said, whether you say it explicitly or not, is the belief that I think you're capable. I think you're capable.
I think you have a lot of the right answers. I think that you can come up with the right answers. I think that together we can find a path through this and that inherently. There is a sense of, I believe in you. Right? And I think that's what's wonderful about coaching is because that's the place we're starting.
We're not starting from, oh man, this person's terrible at their job. There's no way they're gonna get this. And then bringing that energy into the conversation, it always is starting with, okay, what makes them capable? How can we start from that?
Meg Rentschler:
And if somebody really isn't a fit in their position, that's a different kind of conversation.
And there's ways to have that conversation as well, because often if people are not a fit in their position, they feel like they're not a fit in their position as well, and maybe beginning to kind of have a conversation about what they need and what would help them. So, you know, that's going down a different path.
But I do for anybody who was like, yeah, but there is, sometimes there's people who are, okay, that's a, we wear lots of different hats as leaders, and you're not always wearing the coaching hat. Sometimes you're wearing the managing hat, sometimes you're wearing the mentoring hat and there's. Always an opportunity to invite people into the conversation, I think.
Kristiana Corona:
And I think what you were saying too is even if they're not capable to do that very thing, just the act of the conversation of getting on the same page of awareness to say, here are where the gaps are.
And so what do you wanna do with those gaps? Like how do you wanna handle this situation? Do you wanna get to that place where, where you are capable to be in that room and doing all of these things? Or does that not even feel like something that aligns to what you value and what you want? For your career.
And so it opens up really lovely conversations regardless. So if, if someone was taking some of this to heart and they were getting excited about trying coaching, but they're like, I don't know how to do this at all, where should they start?
Meg Rentschler:
I think not to blow it out of perspective, not to think like, oh, this is so big.
It's really exploring. How can I potentially ask one or two questions before I give an answer. It's like start that, and those one or two questions, there's lots of, actually I have a tool for that. I hadn't thought about that. But I have a tool about like how to change those closed-ended questions into some open-ended questions.
I'm happy to share that with you, that you know, it's just like, this is what managing sounds like and this is what coaching sounds like, and sometimes it's just a tweak. So I would say where do we start? We start, first of all with the mindset that. Everybody is in their positions for a reason, so they bring brilliance.
You don't have to solve every question. So I guess that's where I would say it starts, like in the mindset of what would it look like if we solved it together? And the way to begin that is whenever possible. Invite the person into the solution by asking a few questions. First, maybe even set the expectation with your team.
Anytime you come to me with an issue, I'm gonna ask you what your idea for the solution is so that you know that you're gonna at least be, we're gonna have a conversation and I'm not just gonna be the solver. So those are just the mindset. Ask a few questions. Set the expectation with your team that when a issue comes up, I'm gonna be asking what your ideas are.
Kristiana Corona:
What I love about that is it feels like there's no pressure to go in the right order. There's no pressure to say exactly the right thing. It can be just whatever comes to mind in that moment, but just pausing to say, am I making a directive statement or am I asking a question to start with?
Boom. The other thing you mentioned too is, uh, leaders who end up with a giant to-do list at the end of their one-on-ones, like, oh, here's all the ways I'm going to help you, and I have signed myself up for these 10 things. So when you close a conversation, let's say you explore some different options. You help them think it through, what's a way that you can help leaders avoid?
Taking on that rescuing role or that helping role at the end where it's like, what do you want me to do for you next? What's a shift that they could make there?
Meg Rentschler:
Yeah, that's a beautiful question. I would say shift into. So what, based upon our conversation, what have you learned about yourself? Team member, what have you learned about the situation?
So really highlight their learning and their takeaways because the what, how we end a conversation is gonna be how they're gonna move that forward based upon that learning. How are you gonna apply it? What are you gonna do? So they, what are they gonna do to apply it? You? How are they gonna hold themselves accountable to that?
And certainly you can say, what support do you need from me as your leader? However, if they're giving you a to-do list, what are those things that they could actually do? And you could be, you could lead the backup role rather than the front role. So accountability, we all. As human beings can come up with, how do we hold ourselves accountable?
It might be that there's somebody else on the team that is good at something that this person is struggling with, and that might person might become their accountability partner in that you as the leader have many resources to like expand the way you're thinking about it. If it wasn't only you, who else could it be? What resources are available?
Kristiana Corona:
I feel like this was one of the biggest shifts that, you know, you and other educators taught us at UT Dallas was. People feel like they need to say something or give you what to do when you ask a question like, how can I help you make sure this, this happens? Well, they're like, oh, let me think.
Um, yeah, I guess you could follow up with this person and I guess you could, you know, whatever. You're just inviting stuff. And just that simple shift that you talked about where it's like, what does accountability look like for you? What are the things you're going to try? Where do you need support and not pinning that on, how am I personally going to help you in the next 24 hours to do all of those things? Because maybe they don't need your help. Maybe they have everything they need and you're just adding noise to the situation by inserting yourself into that solution.
I felt like that was huge for me because I am the type of person that wants to help, you know, like, oh, I think, what can I do to support you? Yeah. Yeah.
Meg Rentschler:
And then it's like, oh, well you could do this. Well, and then you're in that place of, yeah, that's not really appropriate for more, or that's not, you know, that's not gonna be the best lift for either of us. So yeah, we wanna put guardrails around what it is that we're offering in a way that helps the other person grow and stretch.
Kristiana Corona:
That was a big one. And I feel like it does, it takes practice 'cause it's so automatic. How can I help you? What can I do here? Um, and there's a lot of beautiful intent behind it, but at the end of the day, shifting that question is gonna be in their benefit. And so just. Thinking like, well that is the way I can and help it sometimes is like, what is, what does that look like? How are you gonna do that?
Meg Rentschler:
And to be the best leader, we can't be all caught up in doing everybody else's to-dos. If it's their to do, let them do it.
Kristiana Corona:
And to your point, the more we get out of the weeds and let people handle the decisions they're very capable of doing and the follow. That they're very capable of.
It does allow you to focus on the things that are uniquely part of your role, like strategy and vision and connecting with the right stakeholders and showing up in the right executive rooms and things like that. And you can't do that when you're in every minute detail and meeting and decision. It's just not possible.
So this was a really lovely conversation. I feel like we could talk for probably four more hours. If people wanna continue this relationship or, or follow you or find more about you, how can they do that?
Meg Rentschler:
Well, thank you. First of all, I am on LinkedIn at Meg Wrencher, but I really think that the key thing, another aspect of things that I'm passionate about and have put a lot of time and energy into is creating the Star Coach Show.
Star is an acronym for strategies, tools, and resources, and. When I began the show, it was really to help coaches get those strategies, tools, and resources that they needed. Several years ago, when I started spending a lot of time helping leaders work coaching into their leadership, it really became for coaches and leaders.
So I would say that the Star Coach show.com has over 470 episodes. That will help if, if this idea of bringing coaching into your leadership lights you up. There's a whole pillar of shows around leadership and coaching. So I would say that peruse those and, and see, uh, we've got some really solid, here's what leaders learn when they coach.
Here's how leaders can coach. Here's some ideas about that. So that would be my biggest thing. Follow the Star Coach Show wherever you listen to podcasts, and listen for those leadership shows because once again. If we're gonna create healthier workplaces, we wanna do that. We wanna help every leader kind of better understand how they can bring their brilliance to the stage and let other people bring their brilliance as well.
Kristiana Corona:
And I just wanna put in a plug for the fact that how long you've been doing this, like the amazing repertoire of concepts and. Interviews and wisdom just collected over time when it comes to coaching best practices. Like, I can't think of another show that has done that level of work, and it's so fun to learn from you, Meg.
I just feel like your energy is infectious, and you make it feel fun and easy to learn something like this, which can be overwhelming when you start. So I would highly recommend for anybody who is interested in just taking that next step or diving a little bit deeper, um, make show is such a gem. And yeah, you're gonna find a lot of wisdom there.
And if you find that you just can't get enough of this, I highly recommend UT Dallas as well. Um, the executive coaching program where you could get Meg for a whole year, there's just lots and lots of depth that we could go into around psychology and how coaching compares to therapy and like all of the different areas that are so fascinating.
Neuroscience and, and things like that. But for today's show, I'm gonna let us wrap up there. And just thank you again for sharing all of your insights and your story, and I'm just so grateful to have you in my coaching circle.
Meg Rentschler:
I'm just so grateful to be here with you today, and you are a beautiful example of how exciting it is to teach coaches.
To coach because you are a product of that very thing. You got lit up by coaching, you came to UTD and now look at the work you're doing in the world, and it's just so exciting. So it's absolutely an honor and a privilege to be here with you today. Thank you.
Kristiana Corona:
Thank you so much. All right. We'll talk soon.
