WTL_Catherine Brown Full Transcription
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Catherine Brown:
You first have to make a vow, and I think this could be very deliberate. I'm suggesting a person really think about it, meditate on it, decide where they feel like they conflict with it, and then make a decision that they are not going to sell something to someone that they don't need.
Kristiana Corona:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Worthy To Lead Podcast. I'm your host, Christiana Corona, and I'm so glad you decided to join us for today. So today I have an amazing guest with me who is a sales expert, a serial entrepreneur, and a super connector of good humans. Her name is Catherine Brown.
Welcome to the show, Catherine.
Catherine Brown:
Thank you. I love the name of the podcast. I'm really enjoying watching you lead, and I'm delighted to be here.
Kristiana Corona:
Well, I appreciate that. Um, I think the feeling is mutual, so it's gonna be really fun today to dive in. I wanna start us off with a really juicy topic that actually makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, including myself.
So I wanna be able to dive into the word sales. So for a lot of people, this is a word that carries a lot of baggage. You might think of the words cringey, sleazy, pushy, you know, people who are trying to get you to do something that you don't wanna do. And a lot of sales professionals, which I find fascinating, even feel this way about themselves.
And as a new entrepreneur, this is really top of mind for me. So it's one of those things where. When you think about sales, it just makes it feel awkward or heavy or scary. It's just something you, you sometimes avoid versus wanting to dive right in. But you, Catherine, have a radically different view on sales, and I really want my audience to hear this in your book, How Good Humans Sell.
You make the case that you don't have to choose between being a good human and actually being super effective at sales, and that you can be both and you can actually enjoy the process of selling. So I just wanna start here, Catherine, with this question. What are the most important mindset shifts that we need to make to go from feeling like sales is just this necessary evil to actually being a genuine way to connect with other people and provide value?
Catherine Brown:
Thank you. Well, first, before I answer the question, I want to acknowledge you. I quoted something that I talk about in the book, and I think it's so important for the listeners to understand, which is that even people who choose the sales profession demonstrate in anonymous surveys that they still have hesitation.
And I think that's because they haven't actually done some of the things we're gonna talk about here, because no one's ever taught 'em. They've never learned, and like you said, we've all been. On the receiving end of someone who was a bad actor to, and so we don't have to reach far, whether it's movies or plays or our own experience where we felt like we were poorly treated as a customer.
We all have had bad experiences. We understand that we get there naturally and being a good seller is required to build the business that we all want. It's really required. So. How do we get there? You first have to make a vow, and I think this could be very deliberate. I'm suggesting a person really think about it, meditate on it, decide where they feel like they conflict with it, and then make a decision that they are not going to sell something to someone that they don't need.
So that's about integrity. And I love that word integrity, 'cause the idea is that you're whole on the inside. And so my vow and my words and my offer and my copy and the way I run a call, it's going to be full of integrity, meaning that it's consistent and I'm gonna do the right thing. And I, you just make a vow to yourself, especially Christiana, those of us that are self-employed, I understand sometimes people have a bad boss and they might be in a terrible work environment where they're actually supposed to sell something to someone that they don't need, in which case you need to find something else, right?
Like. I can't change other people, so you probably wanna find something else. But most of us who are listening, you know, most of us probably sell what we built. And so we can decide that we're going to sell the way that we want. And I think the way that good humans wanna do that is that they wanna be internally consistent.
So first thing is make a vow. That you will not sell something to someone that they don't need. And if you start to feel like you're bumping up against that line, no matter how low your pipeline is, no matter how scared you feel about what's next month is gonna look like, if you break that vow with yourself, then that's only feeding the beast of this idea that you are trying to overcome.
So that'd be the first idea. I've got two more, but I wanna give you a chance to respond.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. That just hearing you say that evokes this completely different feeling than pushy, self-centered. It's all about me driving my gain and your loss, and it really comes down to integrity of who do I wanna be. As a salesperson, who do I wanna be as an entrepreneur, and how do I take that mindset into every interaction I have, whether it's selling, building, relationship, offboarding a client, even if it isn't the right fit, right?
But I love that, that feel, because it just settles it. It allows you to just settle into who you are instead of trying to be someone you're not.
Catherine Brown:
And I've built businesses that didn't make it. So I know what it feels like when you have a low pipeline and you're scared. Okay? So I understand that a person might be listening and they might be thinking, Catherine, you don't understand because I really, really need that sale.
But the thing is, as soon as you give into that fear and you let that carry through and how you run the call, your buyer can tell too. We call that commission breath is the expression in the sales world is that you start to have commission breath. So all of a sudden it doesn't seem like you're doing something for them or with them.
It's more like to them or at them, it doesn't feel good.
Kristiana Corona:
That's an interesting term. I haven't heard that before.
Catherine Brown:
Commission. I know. Isn't that gross? And so that sounds like, and I like commission, but commission breath is gross. So that's the first thing is like make a vow. Be a good person. Decide where that line is for you and make the vow the second.
It actually requires some coaching, so it's a real plug for coaching. And then you can coach yourself after you have some tools that seem to resonate with you in how your mind works. But it's kind of a meta moment. So we think about meta, META, metalevel thinking. We're thinking about what we're thinking about.
So if you're feeling very uncomfortable, you wanna ask yourself, what am I believing at this moment? And again, a lot of times for people it's going back to fear. I'm afraid I won't have enough. I'm afraid they're gonna ask me something I don't know. I'm afraid I won't have the answer. That's a big one. For early entrepreneurs, it's like, of course you won't always have the answer and, and the more human you are about saying, I've never been asked that question before.
Can I think about that and get back to you? Like that answer is totally acceptable. It's preferable to making something up on the fly, but we are just so nervous 'cause everything is new when we're first starting out. And so. That question, what am I believing is true, has served me over and over and over again because I can calm down and just take a minute, go for a walk, get a drink, get a snack, take a nap, whatever I need to do to get my mind right, and then make a different choice instead of responding out of fear in the moment.
Kristiana Corona: So no more panic emails. Is what I'm hearing. No more panic, quick decisions, making up an answer pretending, you know, when you don't know that that's all gone.
Catherine Brown:
Exactly. And I actually had a sales call earlier today. It's perfect timing, where I was talking to someone that I ended up giving quite a bit of free advice on the call because we're getting to be friends and really what I was giving was very valuable to them and it was easy for me and it was 15 minutes, so I ended up.
Being helpful to this person on this call and I was watching the time and it was a fairly short call 'cause we both had a lot going on and so I noticed that I just wasn't going to be able to move the conversation around to a full explanation of the way I was hoping we would work together. So toward the end I said, well, we've run outta time and what I'd like to do is.
I think we should work together. And I'm thinking that it could look something like this. And I just threw out very high level. Basically I'd do something a little bit custom for this person is not a program that I'm already enrolling in, and I just jotted out what a few of the deliverables might look like.
And I said, would you like me to give any more thought to that? Does that sound interesting? And he said, that sounds very interesting. Would you write that up? So I wouldn't go and do a full proposal. I don't think we have enough information about that yet, but my point is, in two minutes at the end of the call, I was able to establish, you know, a hook, but I, I don't feel like it was a bad thing because he could say no.
I said, would you like to do that? I really made it in a way that the door was open either way and it would be easy for him to say, thank you. This has been so helpful, but I think I have what I need for now. He didn't say that. He said Yes. Could we talk again? So. I'm giving that example because that's just how calls go.
Sometimes they, I mean, they just don't, sometimes you, they only have 25 minutes or you end up hearing a story and they're taking much longer talking about something that you expect and you don't get to get to your part. But the thing is, we have a long view if we're gonna be, have a relationship with the rest of our careers, which is really what we want, right?
We want lifelong customers and referral partners, then we don't need to be in a rush. And so all that anxiety. Comes out of being afraid that we're not gonna get what we're hoping, and that it comes across the buyer. It has the opposite effect that we intend.
Kristiana Corona:
Well, I, what I love about that is it takes the element of performance out of it a little bit more, and it just makes it feel as if there's no negative consequence if the end of this call doesn't go exactly as we planned, versus I'm setting up this call very intentionally.
Every minute has to be perfect. It has to go like. A, B, C, and then I have to have five minutes to give my spiel, otherwise I fail.
Catherine Brown: And like, right, because we role-played and you didn't follow the script.
Catherine Brown:
I asked that question, didn't follow my plan.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah.
Catherine Brown:
Right.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah, I love that. So it
Catherine Brown:
feels much
Kristiana Corona:
more natural.
Catherine Brown:
So kind of a meta like what am I believing?
What am I think thinking about what we're thinking about? That helps me. The third way I wanna address this, because I do think it's kind of this three step process. The third way is that we get to decide what sales means and create our own definition, so. I think the older we get, the more that we realize that words can have multiple meanings to different people.
And that a lot of times what happens in relationships and interactions with people is because the meaning making that we assign to what someone else is saying isn't what they intended. Like this is the source of a lot of conflict, right? But this word means this to me, but this word means that to you.
And I think similarly with sales, if we decide that we're victims and that we. Don't wanna be seen like those people, then I would say you have the agency to create your own definition and say to me, sales is blank. And that is a lifelong journey of filling the gap on what that word means. That it will change as you grow and change.
This is a little bit parts like why you need a coach. Christiana did not pay me to say this. We're like, why do you need a coach? Because you need to uncover what you think and then you have to take agency for your own life and say, well, that's not what it's gonna mean to me. The same is true for money.
And some people were raised to believe that someone who is very wealthy was lucky or was born into it or was dishonest. Okay. But it doesn't have to mean that that's just what it means to some people. It's agency, right? It's just itself. It's like it's your life, so you need to decide what you want it to mean.
Kristiana Corona:
I love that. And I know you've told stories before about your personal experiences and some of those beliefs, so I'm curious on the sales front, if you say, my old belief was X and it's not serving me anymore. Like what does a new belief sound like for you? Around sales.
Catherine Brown:
For me, I have a lot of people pleasing tendencies, and I was also a high performer in school.
So I would say the first, gosh, eight years out of college, probably I would've filled in the blank. Like for me, sales means the way I make other people happy with me, or sales means being successful in sales means that. Other people will respect me or things that were really about other people's value making me who I was.
I didn't, for some reason have a ton of hesitancy about feeling like I was gonna coerce someone into something they didn't want. Like that particular part of it was not a problem for me, but I didn't see sales and the opportunity to interact and build a relationship through those conversations. I didn't really see that as a gift in the relationship the way that I do now.
And some of that Christian is, I think the longer we're in business, the more we realize that number one, the program I'm offering right now is not the one I will always do. I'll keep having new opportunities. Anyone that's in services who creates any kind of service, you're going to have entry level offers and higher end offers and certain campaigns and people go away.
And people come back. And so I think part of why I was so relaxed on that sales call earlier that I was mentioning is because I can already think of about. Three ways that we could work together in the next 12 months. And so, because my world has gotten bigger, I mean, this person could be a sponsor for a conference.
This person could be a consultant at an event. We could do a joint offer together. We could do webinars together. We could promote one another because of there's just so much overlap in what we do. Or they could buy my program, I could help coach them to build first group, which is what we were talking about.
So there are all these different ways that. It could play out. So I also think I feel less scared because I have this big view where I think, well, I hope it works out sooner than later, but they'll probably come back around again. I just had someone buy something from me in the last few weeks, and they were my client five years ago.
And do you know that like I probably haven't talked to them for two years, which I'm not proud of. But I'm in my mid fifties, so my former client list is pretty long now, and so we just hadn't talked live. We see each other on LinkedIn. I'm supportive. We have a lot of same friends, but it probably been two full years since we'd had a voice to voice conversation and it was five years since we worked together.
And do you know this is a case for email marketing? I did my regular email marketing and did an advertisement about a program I had coming up, and she wrote right back and said, this is what we're working on. This timing seems perfect. And she and another person in our company signed up and they bought right away.
And I thought, never in my wildest dreams what I thought that that person would buy that thing. Never, ever, ever, I would've guessed wrong.
Kristiana Corona:
And it's so beautiful because like you were saying, it's built on the relationship. It isn't built on the perfect product and getting it absolutely right and never changing anything about it.
It's like you've, you now have this whole suite of different options and it's very creative and it's not dependent on them choosing a, if you're selling a, you have A through Z now.
Catherine Brown:
And everyone has only a, when they first start, like that's also normal, right? So then as that evolves and you evolve those relationships, the things, if you treat people well in sales, we go back to that first point.
If you like, pull back and don't move into coercive. When you're tempted to, and you have that long view, as you evolve and have other offers, they will remember you favorably and you never know when they're gonna do. What this person did for me where they just replied and I mean, they clicked through, bought the thing, no discussion.
It was like the thing we all want, like a no call sales. A no call sale just happened, right? They just signed up, but it, they didn't really just sign up. That was from years of trust building, so that was really special to have that come full circle.
Kristiana Corona:
I love that. So speaking of these different offerings, I wanna do just a real quick intro view for people that don't know you because you have had so many things that you have built in the past, not all successfully.
Catherine Brown:
I'll talk about that too.
Kristiana Corona:
Perfect. Um, so you are on a mission to empower generosity and others and just bring them together. So you're an entrepreneur, you're a sales professional, and you're an author. You live in Houston, Texas. I know that you've built at least five businesses, have there. Has it been more than five?
Catherine Brown:
No, I think it's five.
Kristiana Corona:
Five? Okay. Yeah, I, I was trying to count. There was so many, and today you lead the Good Humans Growth Network, which is a global B2B ecosystem that connects entrepreneurs and business development leaders. So that kind of, together, through that relationship building that we've been talking about, they can accomplish their goals and.
What I want people to know though, is that before you started this entrepreneurial journey, because clearly you have that entrepreneurial bug, you were actually in corporate, so you were in a corporate job. You were doing recruiting, you were doing sales, and I would just love for a moment to take us back to what it was like.
In that moment when you were in corporate, you were doing really meaningful work. You were clearly doing well. I know you talked about me meeting your sales quotas and you know, expanding and building all these things, but you made that decision. You made that leap out of corporate to doing your own thing, and that's a really.
Big challenging leap when you do it for the first time. So I'm curious what was happening for you in that moment and what ultimately led you to make that bold choice?
Catherine Brown:
I think overall, Christiana, I'm, I'm much a braver person now than I was then. The funny thing is that. There were just so many circumstances that conspired that it seemed like one of the only options at the time.
So I wish I could say I had a dream, which I've had dreams about things later, but not for this one. You know, I, I wish I could say that I had some, there was some moment, you know, that I just knew and I walked outta the break room and that was it. It really wasn't like that for me. It was that. My husband was a professor at the University of Oklahoma, and I had previously lived in Austin, and the sales territory that I had was really large and I was on the plane a lot and at that point I had one little boy at home and we wanted to try to get pregnant and have a, have another child and ended up having a second boy.
But we were kind of moving into this next chapter of life where we were expanding our family and getting in and out of Norman, Oklahoma. Especially we're talking 20 years ago, like Oklahoma City didn't have that many direct flights. I mean, it was kind of hard. And so I was ready to figure out a way to do something different and things were going on corporate where the company I was with was being sold.
So I already knew that there was gonna be some kind of shift in people moving around. It didn't necessarily mean I had to lose my job overall. I'm probably gonna stayed with the company, but maybe not even in the same role I was in. So it was already some things outside of me. Then I had my family and what was going on there.
And then my precious spouse, who I believe you've had the chance to meet, he is an academic, he's a statistician. He's a super nerd. Okay, love this man. He had this dream job, which for a junior professor in social science at University of Oklahoma in early two thousands does not pay very well. So we get his first paycheck.
We look at all these things happening all at the same time, and it was just clear. It was like, I have to keep working and we have to figure out something that's next. So it was really born out of a need where I kind of wanted to make a transition before I was forced to reorg, and I knew I wanted to get off the road.
So my first business was actually working remote. It started in 2002. People hardly ever did that. It was really an issue to get people who didn't know me well, to trust me, because how do you even get onto their servers? How do you work remotely? This is when like Salesforce was new and LinkedIn was free, and I mean, these are early, early, early days.
You know, people would ship me a laptop so that I did contract sales for other people. I cold call for them, me a laptop because. Going through a virtual private network with their laptop was the only way to get into their database so that I could work. So I had four laptops in the office and I would have to switch and plug in the one when I was working on that particular client's thing.
It's just so funny now. But it was really, is born out of a need and then. Then my vision started getting bigger. 'cause I started to think, you know, I'm doing all the calling, but I could project manage these people and then I could hire other callers. And then it was, wait a minute, I have other project managers I could just sell.
And I just grew that way. And then I got in entrepreneur circles. I joined Masterminds. I started reading more books. I read How to Make Your Business Run Without You. The original E-Myth. I mean, I didn't know anything about how to build a business, so I just had to learn, and that is really what started to put me on the path.
Kristiana Corona:
I love that story because sometimes we have this myth in our head that either you are a confident and totally bold entrepreneur or you're not Like it's a on off switch, and so if you feel hesitation or feel doubt when you're starting something, then clearly that's not for you. But I think it's fair to say that when we're all starting off times.
It isn't our first choice or we had to make it out of necessity, and you go through all of that doubt, and that is the process, like the process of getting to a place where you can have bigger ideas and build more confidently. Like for me, I don't think I would've chosen to leave corporate either. It was just a series of events that all catalyzed together at the same time, my husband being ill, I had three kids going to three different schools.
And I worked at an office that was almost an hour and a half away with rush hour traffic. And then they were requiring five days a week back in the office. And so it was just like one thing after another, right? And I kept being like, no, no, no. It's logistics. I can solve this. I'll figure it out. And then eventually I was like, wait, why am I trying to do that?
Like, is that the best move? Is that what I need at this stage of life? You know, made a different choice and became an entrepreneur also. So it is interesting to hear you kind of go back to that place because I see you as a very confident person. Like you and I met back in 2023 at a Brendan Burchard conference.
We were introduced by a mutual friend, Jenny Che, and the first thing I thought when I saw you was like, oh my gosh, this woman is on fire. Like she's so confident. So enthusiastic. She's just got like all these things going. She's a super connector. She knows everyone. And yet you still had to overcome some things yourself.
Right? Some imposter syndrome or, or thinking differently.
Catherine Brown:
Still do. Kristina. I mean, I think if you keep growing, that's one of the major, another like meta moment. What am I thinking about? What I'm thinking about? What am I doing? One of my major realizations that I caught from a coach who gave me this language is they said, fill in the blank on this sentence.
It is normal for high achievers to blank. And for me, the big one was still feel nervous. It is normal for high achievers to still feel nervous. I don't know why I ever thought that a person arrives at some point in which they do bigger and bigger and bigger things and that they're not nervous. You know what's funny?
I heard this podcast and it was Leanne Rimes was being interviewed on this podcast, and she talked about how she was, is much less nervous to sing now because she's been doing it since she was what? I don't even know when she started. She was so young, but she had to speak at something and she had a long talk to give it a podium, and she talked about how she was so nervous and the interviewer was saying, you spent your life, you grew up in front of a crowd.
How could you be nervous? She said, it's not the same thing. Like to her it was like, it's not the same thing. I mean, singing is one thing, but talking is another. And I listened. I listened to that podcast two or three times because I thought, there's such a lesson in this for us, because it's whatever is new that feels like your next level up, you're going to have those emotions again.
And so noticing them faster, giving them meaning, what does that look like? That's been absolutely life changing for me to fill in the blank and say, this is normal for high achievers. They always feel this way. I really believe that. Now. I think hardly anyone's not nervous, but it probably took me till a year ago to really believe that because I thought they are them and I'm me and I'm deficient.
And now I think, no, I am a high achiever. And so are they. And this is normal. So helpful to me,
Kristiana Corona:
and I think it's so helpful in general because it recognizes that it is uncomfortable if you're growing, if you're doing the things that you wanna be doing, if you're stretching yourself, it is going to be uncomfortable probably the whole time.
And by the time you get comfortable, you're realizing, oh wait, I probably should be focusing on. The next thing, or
Catherine Brown:
if you're a creator, you're inventing the next thing anyway. You almost can't help it. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll give you an example. I'm about to do my fifth conference and there are pieces of it that I am less nervous about.
I have actually observed myself and thought. Oh, that's going better. Like there's some things that I'm still nervous about. I mean, that's not completely without concern, but there's some areas I recognize some level of mastery. So it is definitely improving. But the thing is that I wanna expand in other cities and I wanna do other things that I've never done.
And so that's a whole new set of opportunity. Be scared. It's a whole, it's a whole new world. So. Realizing, oh, that's just how it's now. If I didn't wanna expand and I didn't wanna do that, then that would be the trade off. But for me, having more people enjoy the way that we gather people, and my joy of seeing all those connections made, like I don't wanna stop.
And so. The trade off is learn to manage yourself and your emotion and decide what that means so that when I feel those nerves, I can decide, oh, this is a sign that I'm stretching and not you're gonna throw up.
Kristiana Corona:
I've been talking to a lot of people recently about visualizations, and one of the things I love about visualizations is you're inventing, okay.
The reason I'm having this feeling right now is because I'm about to step out onto this Olympic soccer field, and I'm going into the Olympics, and I am going to dominate. This game and it's gonna be the best game of my life. And you know, whatever it is, like, it doesn't have to be a sport, but just the idea of going into it, like, the reason I'm feeling this way is because I am stepping into this bigger opportunity and I'm ready for it.
Or you know, like you can hype yourself up to tell yourself whatever you need to feel that you can believe. And it just shifts everything about the energy. It goes from like, oh, I feel nervous, I'm gonna tighten my throat, I'm gonna. Make myself small, I'm gonna hide from this opportunity. And to be able to just present yourself the way that you wanna be and enjoy the fact that, okay, I'm doing something that is wildly different for me right now and I'm just gonna go out and enjoy that.
I'm gonna have fun. I'm gonna be in that Olympic stage.
Catherine Brown:
Exactly. And also the idea that all of these experiences are stacking on one another to help me become who I need to be next. So. In the couple of years since I've been building the Good Humans Growth Network, some of my events have made a lot of money and some of my events have cost me money, and I've made some big mistakes and I've done some things really well, and it's been, you know, up and down and you would think because I started things that didn't work.
That cold calling company that I mentioned that I started first did really well. I could still have it today if I hadn't felt ready to do something else, like it did very, very, very well. That was great 'cause that was my first venture. So that encouraged me. But then the next thing didn't go very well, and then the next one did.
And so, you know, I've had all these ups and downs. You'd think I'd be used to it, but I still find myself being surprised sometimes when I have that metaphorical kick in the teeth and I have to start again. Or I have, I design a campaign or I sell some, try to sell something that doesn't work and it ends up costing me.
I keep reminding myself, Christiana, that all of those things that you're mentioning, those experiences they add up to help us become, if we learn what we're supposed to, Brendan would say, you have to install the lesson, right? He would say, you would have to install the lesson inside you. So you can't say you really learned unless you're actually gonna act different because you learned it.
But if you do install it, then what it's doing is it's turning you into the leader you need to be to do the thing That's three years from now. And so I'm doing a lot of that self-reflecting right now. Like these things that were a disappointment in 2025, the things that didn't go the way you wanted.
'cause not everything went the way I wanted. They are necessary for me to serve. The world. World in the way that I will because I will understand, I will have empathy. I'll say I have, I do know what you're saying. I have had that happen to me. I do know how that feels. And talk about worthy to lead. Right?
Like how do you get that by sharing your suffering? I mean, that is what it is like. It's hard. And so when you share that, you have more credibility 'cause you're a normal person who has persevered.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. Well said. Oh my goodness. And I, I wanna double click on just that sense of being on a roller coaster, and there are going to be times where you have phenomenal successes and then things that fail.
So when you are in one of those troughs and you're in something that is failing, how do you think about it in that moment? Like, how do you know? Okay. I gotta throw in the towel on this one. Like I've put in enough, it isn't working. Let's try something new.
Catherine Brown:
Yes. I actually am ex incredibly gritty about my unwillingness to give something up.
So I would say that like, that sounds like it's like a false modesty thing, but believe me, my spouse would tell you that's not true. Like I don't always notice as fast as I should, that I should give up because I tend to think I'll sell my way out of this. I'll figure it out. And so I think some of that is about.
Some better planning ahead of time, right? Agreeing, what kind of risk can I take? How much can I invest before this is going to be harming my family savings or whatever, you know, whatever the, whatever the issue is. That is the decision point. That is a decision you wanna make when you're not in the heat of the moment, right?
And then. I didn't know I was gonna do such a recurring theme about fear. But again, just saying for me, sometimes my not giving up quickly or learning quickly, or sort of reading the signs around me that a pivot is needed. It's coming from the fact that I have uncertainty about what I'm gonna do if this idea doesn't work.
So I wanna just like, dig in and make it work. And so that, that kind of self-awareness makes me realize, okay, as soon as you stop. And give your brain a break. You will have the opportunity to reinvent the next thing, but you can't actually have room and space for that if you won't create the space because you're so doubled down on whatever the issue is.
And I have found that to be true. Christiana, I just give you a quick example. I have an event I wanna do later in 2026, and I had a few setbacks that came from location change, date change, different sponsors I was working with. I mean, within a few days it looked like this idea I had was gonna fall apart and was a little bit irritable about it for a couple days, and I just gave myself that permission.
I thought you might need to quit this idea. Just look further out. These might be signs that this is not something to be done, don't you just take a few days, give yourself a little space to think about it. And I learned about some of these things on a Wednesday and Thursday, and I thought, I'm not gonna give any more energy to this till early next week.
I just wanted to give myself time to calm down, try to see something from everybody else's perspective, you know, all the different parties that were involved. And by Monday I woke up and I was like. I could see a different way to do this, but it's only because I gave myself permission and did some letting go.
Like you have to say, could I become unattached to this success if I remain attached and I'm holding on for dear life, then for me, that really affects my brain's ability to be resourceful and imaginative because I'm kind of just surviving instead of. Inventing.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up.
'cause we were just talking about that in the last podcast I did. Where, you know, the white space that we need as entrepreneurs and as leaders to do strategic thinking to come up with creative ideas. If we don't have that white space, there's literally a part of our brain that cannot think. In those ways.
If we're constantly putting out fires, taking in inputs, processing, doing all the things, but we never slow down and we never just pause and literally take away all the noise, then our brain can't do its job. And I love that example because you had the resourcefulness inside of you, you had the other ideas, and once you cleared the space, those things could emerge differently, which I think is such a good lesson.
Catherine Brown:
And. I remember being even like going back to 2002 with my first company. I remember reading books about Fortune 1000 executives who have an hour a day on their schedule that they leave open, things like that. I remember thinking, someday I'll get to that point and I'll be that kind of person. Well, number one, major choice.
Kristiana Corona:
I think we all say that.
Catherine Brown:
Yeah. Yeah. Major choice, right? And number two, I realize like what is in my way is not actually my own schedule management. 'cause actually I run a very. Clean, tight schedule. I choose everything I wanna do, and I say no to the things I don't wanna, because I've been doing this a long time.
I've been self-employed a long time, and I don't always choose to make time for that. So why is it, I think it's about deservingness, it's about self-trust. For me, it's about saying the time spent spent thinking about the business and giving yourself that white space. So important that it is of the greatest service to other people.
And if what you're saying is that you're doing what you're doing because of these values of service, then if you really think that's true, who is gonna do it? If not you, right? It's like it's my job to do that, but there's a way that my identity isn't always really lined up. Like. I lead all these groups and I had a really successful book, and I get to be on an awesome podcast like this.
I get to do that. But like who's the little girl that's inside who you still, who still has to live with herself? It's like, do you think you are a person who gets to choose that? Not even has to choose, but who gets to choose that? That's the work. That would make me a different kind of leader.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. And that's the deep stuff where you might think, oh, coaching therapy, that's great for someone else.
I don't need that. But I feel like everything you're bringing up is connected somehow to an inner belief or a, a thought, a process that holds you back at this level that you wouldn't even perceive otherwise. Like the idea that I've heard people say before, I'm not strategic, and I think, man. Everyone can be strategic if they decide to be and if they know what to do with that.
But if that is your belief, then of course you won't be strategic. You know, are, are you saying you're not deserving to be in the room to be, you know, able to do this? Like, what, what is that? And how do we take that out of the equation so that you can use the resources you already have to have a totally different impact.
So as we're thinking just about the, the situation that you brought up around not scheduling time for strategy, what do you think is behind that for you?
Catherine Brown:
I think, I think that if I don't do all the other things that are on my schedule already, I believe that I have to be the one to get them done, which will just make me work harder.
Because it's not like, take some stuff off but do this instead. It's like it's always adding in my mind, which is so rude, and I hope my staff doesn't hear me say that because I have a wonderful team. So that tells you it's not about a team and it's not about delegating. It's about a belief about where my time is best spent and what I must do versus someone else.
Kristiana Corona:
I hear a lot of responsibility in your voice.
Catherine Brown:
Yeah. I think it's so strange that you can build a business. Like to me, when I was talking about becoming a different kind of leader earlier, you can build a business that does really well and it's still you and a bunch of staff, or you can build a business.
Where everyone is really in the same bus.
Kristiana Corona:
Mm-hmm.
Catherine Brown:
They have a clear vision too. And they're not just working at your service, they're enrolled in the vision too. And I think I'm somewhere in the middle of those two because it's easier if you're high in responsibility. It's easier just to stay in the former, but like to run the kind of staff meetings.
To be organized enough to make time for vision casting and clarity and strategy. That's a stretch. Given my natural inclinations, that's the other kind of leader that it's gonna take to have the kind of impact that I wanna have.
Kristiana Corona:
I love this topic because I know you care a lot about developing other people to do the same thing, right?
So as you're, it's again that meta conversation of I wanna see this for other people and therefore I need to work on it within myself and I. One of the topics you and I both are passionate about is going 10 x, right? Like 10 x is easier than two XA book by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy. And I know you care so much about this, that you even have a mastermind where you're helping other people unlock this 10 x.
So, so much of that is dependent on you being able to live up to that next level of your own leadership. If you're gonna hit 10 x. Right. So I'm curious, like as you think about that mindset shift, what are some practical things that you've been doing to be able to let other people have that ownership and allow yourself to move to the next level?
Catherine Brown:
I think for me, the way I'm motivated is once it clicks for me. That becoming this other kind of leader who creates the white space, protects it, understands that some of my greatest work really comes to believe it's some of my greatest work. If I do that, that is actually a way to have more fact and greater impact if I really believe that I would do it.
So there's something there that's like, you don't quite believe it. Because I'm very pro-social. I'm very focused on the benefit of my members and, and my leaders. So as soon as I, if it really gets deep down and installed, like this is the way to get there. If I would believe that, then I go, oh, you gotta run your whole week differently.
Oh. Okay. Okay. So now you have me on a journey thinking, oh, you must actually not have quite understood or believed that because if you did, you would behave differently. Well, and I, it's a real service. I mean, it's a real gift to me. I appreciate it because I think it's just about who are we becoming?
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah.
And I think too, there's something really good in what you already do, right? Like, so it's the competition between what does giving up something good in order to get to something great. And that process can feel hard. 'cause in your brain you've already hardwired, well, this works really well, but this mode of operating has worked very well for me.
I should keep doing that. And then there's this part of you that's saying, but if you want to. Get to 10 x, it's not gonna serve you anymore.
Catherine Brown:
Another way I've thought about what's required for the 10 x for me is, so I run this ecosystem called the Good Humans Growth Network. And if people run peer advisory communities or networking groups that are for founders, then it might make sense for those groups to be inside my network.
People pay me an affiliate fee to do that. It's not our franchise, it's not a license. It's quite loose and the leaders have a lot of freedom how they run those groups, but they're basically. Combination peer advisory networking. Okay, that's wonderful. And there's so many kinds of groups that could be in the network and it's going great.
But if I really wanna have a big impact in the world, then I need to be concerned about how people are leaders of all kinds of groups and equipping them to impact others through the groups that they lead. And so I, for me to level up. I have to level up my offers. I have to level up my thinking and I have to see myself as someone who is on par, like I've just been at this a couple years and there are some major, major name brand networks that I could name that are way bigger than mine.
So like what is the work of me believing that I have something to contribute to them if we were to be peers? If I were to reach out or connect on LinkedIn or say, do you wanna connect? But the truth is I'm reaching way up. Like I'm leveling up big time. If I were gonna do that, like that's a lot of self-coaching to say you wanna be their peer, so you're gonna act like that's true and you're gonna do it because you know what?
High achievers. Keep going, even when they're nervous, like whatever that self-coaching is, right? Your vision and your mission have to get bigger. So it's like, okay, what kind of person do I need to be to be able to lead that? I have to keep evolving too.
Kristiana Corona:
I feel so seen right now. I feel like that's an everyday process.
Mm-hmm. Of figuring out how to approach a situation where you are. Stepping into bigger shoes than you've been in, what does that look like? What does that day look like? How do I act? What kind of conversations do I have? How do I restructure my time to focus on building these types of relationships or these bigger deals, or honestly, it just takes completely starting over in some cases to say.
Are all of these things something that could even work in this bigger ecosystem, and to some degree, some will, but someone else might need to do some of those things or maybe other things we need to just stop.
Catherine Brown:
We need to pause altogether because we love the 10 X is easier. The two x one of the key principles is that my future informs my present, not my past.
I'm not driven largely by my past, right? I can't even remember everything accurately. It's not like I even really remember how it happened, and I have a story that's made up too. So if I want my beautiful future of this 10 x future to inform, it actually has to inform how I run my day. How I spend every hour.
And if I don't give myself time to reflect, I can't even notice if I am successfully doing that or not. Because what will we do? Our brain wants consistency. It'll just go back to its default mode, which is to me to have literally too many tabs on my brain and too many tabs on my computer open at one time.
And I already know how to live that way. And it's gotten me, like you said, it's been a good thing. It's gotten me to a certain point, but it's not gonna get me where I wanna go and.
Kristiana Corona: Yeah, I appreciate those reminders
because I think that mindset of, I have too many tabs open. I'm running as fast as I can, I'm hustling, becomes a ceiling, and then eventually we start stealing from future Me.
I can't. Do the things I wanna do because there isn't any space to do them. And so if you think about like, oh, I'm robbing myself of the opportunity to build that next thing because of how busy I am, then I do have to do the hard work of uncommitting or doing less or outsourcing or whatever the case may be, to create that space.
Catherine Brown: 'cause it doesn't happen in a vacuum
If we keep doing. What we have been, even though we know it's not gonna get us where we wanna go, it has to still be serving some purpose, right? It's like, what is this giving you? Because if it weren't giving you something, you wouldn't keep doing it. So for me, the not changing I get to be right.
Right. I get to be very hardworking or very gritty or very sacrificial or whatever that frame is that has previously. Been satisfying, but I don't really want to stay there. Want to be defined a different way and that creates the discomfort, which brings us full circle, which is like, no wonder that feels uncomfortable sometimes because it's strange.
Kristiana Corona:
I just appreciate the work that you're doing and your transparency in talking about, you know, your, your leadership shifts and your identity, because I think it's so easy to look at the outside and see the glossy and. I think, you know, we all imagine, oh, these people have it all together. They're all super confident.
Nothing ever fails. And so just like the stories you've been telling today I think are so amazing because it's true. Nobody has it all together. Even the best baseball players still misses the ball. You know, like we all kind of just need to hear that sometimes and be reminded that we can be very high performing and, and still have the reality of doubt or fear or too much busyness or, you know, not every.
Every sales pitch goes the way we want, and not every conference goes the way we want or project. And that exactly how it plays out.
Catherine Brown:
It's the human experience.
Kristiana Corona:
So speaking of the human experience, you have a conference coming up very soon, February 26th and 27th in Galveston called the Grow Conference.
I'm so excited because this will be my second year attending and I get to be in the the coaching corner this time. So appreciate that invitation. Just being able to coach small businesses. So I'm curious if anyone is thinking about this or curious what it is, what is so special. About the Grow Conference and what are they gonna experience if they come?
Catherine Brown:
So let me mention to you, in case you hear this much later and you're like, oh no, February's already passed. We do a couple events in the States every year. So you can go to the G gn.com, which is the Good Humans Growth Network, the GHG n.com always have an events tab and tells you what's coming up every spring.
We do have the Grow Conference that right now we do on the Texas Coast. And what is unusual about it? First of all, it's 90% small business owners who sell to bigger companies. So I like spaces that are B2B doesn't mean I don't like people that have retail stores or only online stores, things like that. I admire them.
They're just not my expertise because going all the way back to my recruiting days, I sold. Products and services into corporations. So that's the thing I know the most about with my sales background. So that's why I formed the ecosystem the way I did. So everyone sells B2B and it's almost all owners in the room, and they almost all sell to companies bigger than themself and.
We tend to be around a hundred people. We actually cap it and we do a ton of work ahead of time. So actually as we are recording this, we're a month away from the event and we have, we are beginning to release all of the know before you Go videos to help people make the most of their time. And we're arranging for positive people to meet ahead of time on Zoom so that you know the people in the room who are most likely in a position to refer to you because we've matched up who shares similar types of clients.
And then the other thing that's really special is I've worked really hard over the last two and a half years to figure out this balance between content. So we're doing personal development content and time for networking. And so we have a lot of open space, which has come at the request of the conference feedback surveys that have said, please program less material and give me more time to visit with these amazing people in the room.
And Christiana, if you told me. In 2024, when I started my first event, that people would fly across the country to sit in a room to face each other. I would never have believed you. I'd be like, I can't charge for that. They're not gonna come. And they do because the people in the room are so smart, so kind, so special, so desiring of reciprocal great relationships that people are like, don't pack me with two fold an agenda.
So this time, for example, we have some main time together. We have two breakout tracks, and then we have unscheduled time. And it's not really unscheduled. It says open networking. We bring in extra furniture, we have coffee going the whole time, and we really curate the space where people can get to know each other.
And so I don't, even though we met at the Brenda Burchard conference and I've learned so much from him, and I love him. I don't wanna have that kind of event because I don't like road seating that's crowded and I don't like to sit and listen all day long. I think it's hard. This is the exact opposite of that.
We use round tables, we cap the size. It's very discussion oriented, very workshop oriented. So we've really figured out a fun rhythm that's kind of anti-big conference.
Kristiana Corona:
I like that vibe and I would. Concur that that is exactly the experience that I had when I went last time. There's a handful of people you're gonna meet and you're gonna form deep relationships with, and some of those people I still meet with very regularly and have become mentors and have become thought partners.
And so you just never know who's gonna be in the room. But I think. With the caliber of people that you know and that huge network that you've established, just you're kind of a magnet, right? You're drawing all these people and you're like, you sure really know this person? It's just really powerful and really different.
It makes you feel like you're part of a small event versus, yeah, like a big mass event where you don't meet anyone. That's the worst.
Catherine Brown:
You could still have so much impact too. Like I'm thinking about a guy that is in the consulting corner this time and who's also gonna be a speaker, and he only came two conferences ago for the first time.
He's a major, major leader. He leads a group in an ecosystem. He's a member of another group in the ecosystem. He's speaking this time and he is a sponsor, so he is just risen up. And you know how he did that was by coming and offering like he's a leader now. And he just put himself out there and said, I wanna, I wanna participate.
And Annie has great content. So the combination was amazing. And, and so it's still possible, like, so I would just say that to your, you know, your friends and clients, it's like rooms that size are designed for you to raise your hand and walk through a note. Everyone in here is a high achiever and everyone in here is still nervous.
So like. Come on, come and join us 'cause this is what we're doing together.
Kristiana Corona:
I think on that note, that is the perfect way to wrap this up. I appreciate the invitation. And then if they wanna connect with you, LinkedIn,
Catherine Brown:
LinkedIn's great. Mm-hmm. That's a great place. And I, someone told me, 'cause there are a lot of Catherine Browns.
I'm Catherine with a C and someone told me recently that you can say Catherine Brown, B2B referrals. If you type that in the search bar, my name comes up because there are a lot of Catherine Browns you can imagine.
Kristiana Corona:
Yes, yes. Oh, that's perfect. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate you taking the time.
I know you have a lot to, uh, line up before the conference starts, but it was such a pleasure to talk to you and I feel like you have so much to offer as far as, you know, getting comfortable with sales, developing your leadership, like what it really looks like to build businesses and continue to scale along the way, like just continuing to push yourself to that next level.
So thank you so much for being here.
Catherine Brown:
Thank you. See you soon.
Kristiana Corona:
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Catherine Brown. She is just a phenomenal leader and it was so fun to see behind the scenes a little bit of how she works, the mindset she's still working through how she thinks about selling. Highly recommend her book.
How good humans sell. There's so much of the psychology and the mindset and the belief work that we talked about today that that's in that book, and all of the resources that we shared are gonna be in the show notes with this episode so you can find them there. If this episode resonated, I hope that you will subscribe.
Leave us a review and share this episode with someone who needs some encouragement, maybe around their selling or around their leadership style. And as always, keep showing up. Keep doing the work that matters and keep leading like you're worthy to lead because you are. We'll see you next time.
