Van Lai-DuMone:
We all are innately creative. We're all innately curious. So when we are bringing curiosity and creativity into anything in the workplace, strategy, leadership development, team development, whatever it is, you're tapping into a capacity that every single person in the room has access to.
Kristiana Corona:
Ever feel like everyone else has leadership figured out, and you're just making it up as you go?
I've been there. I spent two decades leading design and technology teams at Fortune 500 companies, and for years, I looked like I had everything pulled together on the outside. But on the inside, I felt burned out, overwhelmed, and unworthy of the title leader. Then, a surprise encounter with executive coaching changed my life and dramatically improved my leadership style and my results.
Now, I help others make that same shift in their leadership. This podcast is where we do the work, building the mindset, the coaching skills, and the confidence to lead with clarity and authenticity and to finally feel worthy to lead from the inside out.
Hello, and welcome back to the Worthy to Lead podcast. I'm your host, Kristiana Corona, and I'm so glad you're joining us for today. The conversation I'm going to have today is one that I've been really looking forward to because we are exploring something that doesn't always get taken seriously in the business world, but it should. We're talking about creativity, not as a nice-to-have or a one-time team-building activity, but as a real lever for problem-solving, innovation, and leadership effectiveness.
My guest today is Van Lai-DuMone, and she is an expert at this. Van is a creative keynote speaker and the CEO of Work Smart Advantage, which is helping organizations unlock innovation and improve leadership skills through curiosity and creative strategies. She empowers leaders and teams to think differently, to embrace experimentation, and to turn bold ideas into action through her unique creative integration methodologies.
She showcases how having fun, playing, and creating together is not a nice-to-have, but is in fact, a strategic problem-solving tool. Van's book, What if Pigs Can Fly?, is a practical guide to following your curiosities, and it tells the story of how her mother and 19 other Vietnamese refugee women, guided by curiosity, trailblazed the now $8.3 billion US manicure industry.
She also provides a framework for her readers to follow their curiosities and to turn seemingly impossible ideas, like flying pigs, into real-world possibilities. She also happens to be Lego Serious Play certified, and if you haven't heard of that, you need to look it up. Van's story is so fascinating, and I'm excited for you to hear more from her today, so let's dive in.
I wanna ground us in an important story that I know you like to tell. Um, you are a family of Vietnamese refugees that came to the United States, and there was an important story about your mother that really had a big influence on your leadership and your career path. Would you mind sharing that story with my audience?
Van Lai-DuMone:
I will definitely share that story, and it is interesting because it's a story clearly that happened to me as a very young child, and I just grew up hearing my mom tell this story. And it wasn't until I started my business and really ran my business for, uh, five years thinking like, "Oh, like it's not random that my work is in creativity and curiosity."
So the story is in 1975, we were Vietnamese refugees. We came here, uh, from Vietnam as Vietnamese refugees on April 29th, 30th, 1975, with the help of the US military, and our first home was at Camp Pendleton Marine Base in San Diego. And we spent about two months there, and we-- after that, we were transferred to a refugee integration center up in Northern California called Hope Village.
And it was at Hope Village that civilian volunteers came to help us in our transition, including a Hollywood movie star named Tippi Hedren. So, Tippi Hedren back then was most famously known for Alfred Hitchcock's movie, "The Birds." And I always like to say for the younger generation, she's Melanie Griffith's mom and Dakota Johnson's grandmother.
But back then, Hollywood movie star Tippi Hedren, and she came to this camp, and she looked at the women at the camp and said, "We need to find them a new career in this new country." Um, so the first thing she thought to do was, "Well, let's make it easy. We're going to start a typing and sewing class because, you know, those are fairly easy to learn and easy to get careers in."
So she started this program. My mom and 19 other women signed up, and Tippi would help them. Like, as they were-- as she saw them typing and sewing, she would walk around the room, and they enjoyed what they were doing, but they noticed something about Tippi that totally caught their curiosity, and that was Tippi's long, red manicured nails.
Very bad example right here on my fingers. But Tippi had these beautiful long- Mine are green. Yeah. Oh, you got green ones. That, that would get-- catch someone's attention too. So it caught their curiosity, and imagine being-- like even us today, how busy we are. So like I was hiking the other day, and someone's like, "Oh, nice hair," right?
Like, "Your hair looks great." I said thank you and kept hiking. So imagine being as busy as Tippi Hedren, Hollywood movie star. They said, "Nice nails." Tippi easily could've said, "Thank you for noticing. Keep typing and sewing." But she didn't Right? She paused and she paid attention to that curiosity. And in that pause, it caused them all to ask more questions like, "What if?
How might we become licensed manicurists?" Uh, so that started this whole path of taking these small steps. So Tippy invited her local manicurists from LA to come up and help these women do a basic manicure, learn how to do that, which they did, and they loved it, and that did make them licensed manicurists.
But there are some challenges becoming a licensed manicurist, like they didn't have money to pay tuition, and most of them didn't speak English. But rather than focusing on the challenges, they focused on the curiosity. So that led them to more questions like, "What if? How might we?" And it led to a little bit of courage and bravery too, right?
So the next thing Tippy did was she took them all down to the local beauty college, and they asked the owners of Citrus Heights Beauty College if they would be able to take on these 20 women as students. And the owners of Citrus Heights Beauty College said yes. So after 400 hours and 10 weeks of schooling, my mom and her friends, they all passed their manicure practicum and written test in English, making them the first 20 licensed Vietnamese manicurists in the United States.
So when I do keynotes, I like to ask the audience, "How many of you in this room have ever had your nails done by a Vietnamese manicurist?" And I would say most of those hands go up, and it's from that story, right? It's from the story of these Vietnamese refugee women who followed curiosity. They got creative with how they might do so, and 50 years later, it's now an $8.3 billion industry.
Kristiana Corona:
And it's almost unfathomable, you know, that something so big started like that, right? And she could have never known that that would be the trend that that would take. But just like you said, the curiosity and the, well, what if we could overcome those challenges, not speaking English, not having the money for that.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Yes. I think it's such a powerful lesson for all of us, 'cause how many times have we had a curiosity tap us on our shoulder and said, "Well, who am I to do that," right? Or, "There's too many challenges," and then just moved on.
Kristiana Corona:
So then as you grew up in that legacy, like what a legacy to have, what did that show you about what was possible for you?
Van Lai-DuMone:
Well, it's interesting because, like, growing up as a child to Vietnamese refugee or being a Vietnamese refugee myself, and I feel like growing up, I always had these examples of curiosity cr- and creativity by necessity. So, you know, the light bulb broke or- or the light switch broke or something, like, "Okay, we'll grab a toothpick and some duct tape," right?
It's like, like, "We'll just fix it ourselves." So, so even though... And I, I, I talk about this too, even though my parents always spoke to me about stability and education, uh, and the importance of all that, which I did, right? Went-- I always went and got my MBA. And even though that's what they said in their words, ultimately, I left all that and followed what I saw them doing Right?
I saw them every day having b- having to be curious, having to be creative, and they did it out of necessity. But again, I think it got ingrained in me, so now I get to do it out of, you know, joy and excitement.
Kristiana Corona:
I was curious about that path, like the creative path that you took, where, you know, you had to make that choice.
Was there any fear in choosing a different path for yourself and not doing what they said about, like, chasing stability and things?
Van Lai-DuMone:
Yes, tons of fear. I mean, I, I followed the path that I was told, uh, or society tells you, my family told me for years. I think I was not... I was, like, maybe 39 or 40 by the time I started this business, and I've always been creative ever since I was a little kid.
You can ask my mom. I would... She bought me a beautiful white bunk bed, and by the end of the day, it was muraled, right? Um, shoes, I would paint my shoes, cut up my T-shirts- ... all this stuff. And so creativity was always who I was, but then I was told to be something else, and I followed- Mm-hmm ... what I was told for the longest time.
It was finally in my late 30s when I had just had a baby. He was eight weeks old. My brother, who was a police officer at the time, was in a motorcycle accident, and he was in a coma. He was left in a coma for two months, and he's fine now, thank goodness. And my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. So all this within, like, a two-month period happened, and it was then when, like, there's been this idea tapping me on the shoulder for years, like at least six years, about bringing creativity into the workplace.
But I ignored it 'cause it would show up, and I would say, "Who am I to do that? I don't know how to start a business. What am I thinking?" Like, I have a stable job. So I never did anything with it, but it was those, the trifecta of those three things happening in my life, where I'm like, you know what? Life's short.
Um, I want my baby to see his mom doing something she loves, and that's when I decided to take the small steps to start this business.
Kristiana Corona:
That's an incredible story, and one that I think a lot of people can relate to, especially the listeners of this podcast who are, many of them are still in the corporate world, and they're thinking about, like, what does it look like to do something else or to have a phase two of my career that, that's a little more entrepreneurial, and there's a lot of fear and a lot of doubt.
So even though you have parents that were very entrepreneurial and, you know, were successful in building these things, there's still that, that self-doubt that creeps in. So you, you had to go through this period of time where it was like everything in life was turning up the volume on you, like, "Do it now."
Van Lai-DuMone:
Exactly. Exactly. And I, and I hope not everyone has to go through something like that to, for them to, like, have that wake-up call and make that change.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. I mean, it's nice when, when you don't have to get to that extreme. I was in a similar situation where I was in a corporate career for 23 years, and I had no plans to leave.
But life, just one thing after another, like health challenges in the family, and then I had three kids going to three different schools, and then return to office, and, you know, it was, like, kinda one thing after another just led to this moment where I was like, "You know, I'm very creative and innovative with my time, and I can maneuver logistics, but man, this is pushing my back up against a wall as far as having the flexibility I need."
And so that was actually the catalyst for me to pursue my own business as well. And I'm so grateful that it happened. Like, I don't know that I would've made that leap unless there was something.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Absolutely. So, so sometimes we do need that catalyst.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. So, uh, as a fellow creative person and design leader, I know that a lot of times you can go into an organization and people are a little skeptical of creativity, right?
Like, they kinda look at it and they're like, "Great, that's, you know, fun for our offsite," uh, or this one-time thing. But, you know, as far as a way of working, that's very foreign to us. So what kind of resistance do you face when you think about, like, taking creativity into these larger, more established organizations?
'Cause you work with companies like Google and LinkedIn and NBC and kind of, you know, giant organizations. What resistance do you face, and what are people missing about the power of creativity and curiosity?
Van Lai-DuMone:
I have to say, like, when I think about my 10 years of being in this business and doing this work, I think there's, there's quite a difference from when I started and today.
So when I first started, it really was pulling teeth, right? It's like trying to get people to understand the value of creativity in the workplace. And what I found was I had to educate people on the value of creativity before I could even sell what I do, which is really bringing creativity into learning and development.
So, uh, in going back a little bit too, like, just, like, this idea of a lot of people wanna leave the corporate environment, like they're not feeling... Like, they might wanna be doing something entrepreneurial. I will have to say, like, the reason why I started this business is because I was in a large corporation where I felt there was zero creativity.
I hadn't like, I didn't feel like I was able to bring my creativity into it. So... And I realized I was very fortunate to be in a position in my, in my life where I could leave and start a business. But really the work I do is I'm trying to bring creativity into the workplace. So for almost, like, for those people who can't leave, they at least have that in the workplace, right?
So maybe they won't want to leave anymore. I wonder if I had creativity in the workplace, if I would've ever started the business. Who knows? I probably would have. But some people, like, they don't need to whole start a whole business. They just like, there's like, they want their voice heard Right? Or they want to have practice some sort of creativity in the work they do.
I think a lot of times people think of creativity as the people define it as something, arts and crafts, like being, like literally the creative aspects, like marketing and, and things like that. The way I approach creativity in the workplace is it's a thinking tool, right? And we all are innately creative.
We're all innately curious. So when we are bringing curiosity and creativity into anything in the workplace, strategy, leadership development, team development, whatever it is, you're tapping into a capacity every single person in the room has access to. I don't have access to the ability to do accounting or really basic math, but, right?
Um, but everyone in the room has the ability to be creative and curious. So when you think about creativity and curiosity as a thinking tool, then you're talking about, you're talking about those two things as a strategic tool in the workplace. Because the more ideas you have on the table, the more people sharing ideas, you're not only gonna get the best idea to get to the finish line, but you're also doing is allowing everyone to have a voice.
So you're building that level of trust and psychological safety, too.
Kristiana Corona:
You mentioned the word arts and crafts, and I know you and I had a conversation about the importance of language when it comes to creativity, and sometimes people have a hard time connecting the dots between arts and crafts and business outcomes or ROI.
But you went through sort of a renaming or experimental process to figure out, like, what kind of language actually resonates. So, do you mind sharing like some of the language that you found to be successful?
Van Lai-DuMone:
Absolutely. So when I first started my business, it really was, I'm gonna bring arts and crafts into an office, and I had workshops called, like, Weave of Dreams, Let Your Light Shine.
And, and I would approach a corporation like, "We don't really need that, but thank you so much anyway." So I redefined my business to Work Smart Advantage, and it was applying g- these creative integration methodologies to learning and development. And when I, when I, when I first started my business too, it was really what it, it was around, arts and crafts.
Let's do this art project in your office to really let people be creative. And the answer was no every single time. So when I revamped to Work Smart Advantage, connected to learning and development, I started calling these creative art projects creative artifacts. And now people are like, "Yes, we definitely want the workshop, and we want the creative artifact," and the truth is everyone's still painting a rock, right?
Like, it's still, it's still arts and crafts, but now there's a value to it 'cause I'm calling it an artifact as a representation of something you can take away as a reminder of the work we did that day.
Kristiana Corona:
I love that. I think it's so interesting how just revamping your language to connect to things that people understand, like the vocabulary they're used to using, so powerful when in essence it is the exact same activity.
Um, there were, uh, workshops that we did when I was at Amazon, and they were innovation workshops. We called them Horizon 2 workshops, and there were some where we literally brought in toy cars, we brought in like pretend little models. We built paper prototypes, and people were like driving these little cars around and simulating, you know, delivery environments.
But it is so effective to get people out of their heads sometimes, right? We're so stuck in our heads.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Yes. And, and like I said, we are all innately curious and creative, so when you put toys in front of people, you know, what we call toys, and give them an assignment with it, they... Every- everyone gets into it.
I, I guarantee you look back at those times when you did workshops like that, 'cause I've done this too, where I will stand on the stage talking to 300 people, and they're all... Usually my, my workshops and my keynotes are table rounds so people can work together. But to stand on the stage and look at, at a room with 300 people with Legos on the table and markers and rocks on the table, and you look and you're like, "No one's on their phone.
No one's leaning back." Like, everyone's leaning in to do this. It's pretty powerful.
Kristiana Corona:
You brought up Legos, and I think it's fascinating that Lego has also capitalized on turning this into a serious business process, uh, Lego Serious Play, and you're certified in Lego Serious Play. So can you describe for this audience like what it's like when you go into a room with an organization?
What are they doing? Um, how, how do Legos interact with some of these idea-building exercises?
Van Lai-DuMone:
So Lego Serious Play was started at the Lego Group back in the '90s, and they were going through some strategic challenges, and they couldn't get their executives to think outside the box, right? Linear left brain thinking.
So they brought in some specialists, and they designed this program called Lego Serious Play. So it's a facilitation methodology that was started at the Lego Group and has clearly grown around, around the world. And the value of Lego Serious Play is, number one, that tactile learning that you were talking about, using our hands to think, right brain thinking, getting out of our left brain thinking.
The value of it, number one, is it gets people out of their head, literally think with your hands. It allows people to share more than they would normally share. So for example, if you and I were ideating on something and you ask me, "Here's the challenge, how might I solve it?" I might not be so willing to tell you because I'm thinking too much.
My idea might be wrong. Um, what if it's a bad idea? Whatever it is. But if you... If we're in a room and you say, "Build an idea of Lego" Right? Again, that creativity and that play. Like, I'll build, I'll build something out of LEGO. Sure. And then to hold it in my hand and to point at it and share with you what the model means is easier for people to do than to try to say it from, you know, the brain or the heart, whatever it is.
So it removes it from you. And the process of LEGO Serious Play also, let's say we're in a team of 10 people, is that everyone builds, everyone shares. So in ideation, as I'm sure any leader that's listening to this understands, if you walk in a room with 10 people and say, "Here's a challenge. Who has an idea to solve for this challenge?"
You might hear from the same two or three people that you always hear from, and then you have the other people who aren't ever gonna say a thing. Um, so you're not getting those ideas on the table. With LEGO Serious Play, one of the rules is, um, everyone builds, everyone shares. So it's equal time and equal relevance.
So you have an intern in the room and you have the CEO in the room, they're gonna both build models, they're gonna both share models, they're gonna push those models into the center of the table, and then it becomes a collaborative effort.
Kristiana Corona:
The other thing that I think is really brilliant about that is, for example, when you have triad teams, maybe you've got engineers, product people, designers, and then you've got various other modalities where, you know, like a legal person, a marketing person, whatever, and not everyone feels comfortable sketching.
So sketching is often, like, a modality we use a lot and, you know, of course the designers are like, "Oh, absolutely I will sketch. I'll sketch all day long. I'll give you 25 sketches." And then you've got other people around the table that are like, "I suck at drawing. Like, how embarrassing. I'm gonna draw a stick person."
And it, it, like, instigates sometimes some shame for certain people in not being able to fully bring their idea to the table, and I love that concept of LEGO because it just neutralizes all of that. Like, you don't have someone who's the hero in the room that's making, like, the next da Vinci, and over here is, like, someone with a stick person.
It's like everyone can contribute kind of more on an equal playing field it sounds like.
Van Lai-DuMone:
I talk about LEGO Serious Play as the low-hanging fruit because I do integrate... So my process is called creative integration, so how do we integrate these creative tools into facilitation, into ideation, into strategy, whatever it is.
But I will always start with the lowest hanging fruit, which is LEGO Serious Play, because most of us can put blocks together and we've had that experience. And then I might do something like a visual connection. Here are four images. What characteristics of these images reflect the challenge? What characteristics of these images reflect how we might be able to solve the challenge?
And then we might do something where it's like a writing, you know, just like writing words down, almost like brainstorming. And then at the end is where I would possibly bring in some sketching, where people are all like, like, like easing in... Almost like the idea of easing people into their creativity.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it's, like, a little bit of neutralizing the, the fear factor by getting them to release a little bit of those guardrails along the way.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Right.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, so you also use a lot of other types of artifacts. What are some of your other fun, creative artifacts that you like to create with teams?
Van Lai-DuMone:
The artifacts or just any... The, so the artifacts, let me, let me see what I might have here.
Kristiana Corona:
Um, so I know you told me a rock.
Van Lai-DuMone: I do have a lot of rocks. Right. So these what I call... Let me see. There's like... These are k- um, what do you call, reminder cubes. Oh. And I'll use them for different things. So one of the workshops I do is around, you know, applying your personal values to your company values, and what I'll have people do is write their values on each side, and leave it at their desk and sort of like roll it like a dice on the morning.
Like, what value are you gonna focus on today? Same with the rocks. The rocks I use for many different things, too. Again, it's, it's a reminder of the work we did today, and I will do a workshop on personal strengths. Like, what are your personal strengths? And I, I really do use these myself, where I will, um, put my strengths on here, because sometimes if I'm getting on a podcast or I'm talking to a potential new client, I might have feelings of nervousness, anxiety, whatever it is, and I'll look at my little rocks, and like, uh, guess what?
Nervousness isn't on one of these rocks, right? Curiosity is. Creativity is. So they truly do serve as, like, physical reminders of where you wanna be, how you wanna show up. I don't have the, an example of another one, but it's like a, a, a flat wood block where I'll take, actually... It's more like a team development one, where I'll get pictures of everyone on the team, and I will, you know, take the pictures of, of each individual person.
They each get a wood block, and then it's almost like a team appreciation project, where that block, like, like you would be on a block, I would be on a block. We would just pass them around, and people can write down or draw a strength they see in you.
Kristiana Corona:
Fun.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona:
Oh my goodness. That is an awesome-
Van Lai-DuMone:
Haven't done that one in a long time. I gotta bring that one back.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. As you were talking about rocks, I realized I have a rock that is on my desk right now, and I got this in... It says discover, and it has, um, it has an ostrich running on it. Uh, I got it when I was in a coaching training years and years ago, probably 10 years ago, and they were just talking about being open to discovery.
So whether you're in a coaching conversation or whether you're in a group session where you're ideating, whatever that is, like rather than saying, "I know the answer," being open to discovering what might be possible, and I think that aligns so well with your, like what if, right? Your what if strategy.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Yes. And I love that you have that because I will You know, have people reach out to me four or five years later who's like, "I still have my rock." Right? "I still have my cube," whatever it might be. Like, those, those artifacts really do serve their purpose.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah, it's funny. I, I didn't even real- ... I was looking around my desk like, "Well, what do I have that's fun?"
I'm like, "Oh, look at that. I have a rock from 10 years ago, still there." Um, okay, so you also capture some of this framework that you use in a book that you wrote called, What If Pigs Can Fly? I was wondering if you could walk us through sort of your, your three-step framework for how you unlock possibility and creative thinking, you know, and what does that look like in a real business context?
So if someone was applying that framework to a specific business problem they were going through, what would that, what would that look like?
Van Lai-DuMone:
Sure. So the book is around following curiosity. Like, uh, we started our conversation with the, with the idea of like, like possibility happens when we follow our curiosity.
So the first part of the process is number one, pausing and paying attention to those curiosities that tap us on the, tap us on the shoulder, like Tippy did, right? She could've completely ignored that curiosity, but she didn't. She paused and she paid attention, and then she asked those questions, what if, how might we?
And then she chose one small step to start with. And it took me four years to write that book 'cause I'm like, "Those are the three steps, like what's there to write about?" But then I realized, oh, well, as human beings, we often ignore those three steps. We often just ignore the curiosity that tap us on the shoulder.
So I am gonna write the book, and I'm going to teach the creative problem-solving method within that book. So an application is, you know as a group or an individual, there's an idea you wanna... You, you know, there's an idea that taps a, a, a group on the shoulder. What if we do this? And again, we can focus on challenges or we can focus on possibility and opportunity.
So the book and the framework help you focus on the opportunity instead. So then once you kind of decide like, okay, we're gonna pay attention to this, the next step is to ask those powerful questions like what if and how might we? How might we do so? Oftentimes in organizations or as individuals, we'll say, "Okay, here's what we wanna do.
Let's take this idea and move," rather than like, like, how else, what else might we do? How else might we do it? So that's when we get into the tool of divergent thinking, and in divergent thinking, once that curiosity taps you on the shoulder, you ask yourself, "How might we, what if we... " And then you allow divergent thinking.
And divergent thinking is this process of all ideas make it to the table. You might bring out your Lego and say, "Everyone build an idea to solve for this challenge or vet this opportunity. Now everyone build two more ideas. Now everyone build five more ideas." And you might have some people who have five ideas on the top of their head, and you might have all those, the other people like, "I don't have any more ideas."
But you're like, "Just use your hands. Build anyway, right, and see what comes up as you build." And you would use all these different creative tools to get people to share ideas, and wild and crazy ideas are welcome. I like to use the example Any challenge you give me, Kristiana, I'm gonna say, um, I think we should get everyone a baby pig, right?
And that gets to sit on the table- ... because I said it, and we're using divergent thinking. So divergent thinking is this idea of getting all ideas on the table, and only after you've gotten everyone's idea on the table, and multiple ideas, are we gonna move to the next step, which is called convergent thinking.
And convergent thinking is now this idea of narrowing down those ideas through a set of parameters. So you set the parameters, right? If it's a workplace environment, might be, okay, gr- all these amazing ideas, but it has to be within this budget. It can't be a farm animal. Right? So whatever the parameters are, and then you see all the wild and crazy ideas and practical ideas, and filter through until you select one to move forward with.
And then once you move, you've selected the one to move forward with, you don't... You just take one small step, right? You make, take one small step and see what other doors open for you. And the beauty of it, of doing it that way, individually or in the workplace, is you have built trust and psychological safety.
You allow people to share their ideas without judgment. You've got everyone's ideas on the table, so literally now the best idea has made it to the finish line. And let's say that idea doesn't, doesn't make it through. You don't end up using it. Well, now you have a pool of ideas you can draw from. You don't have to start at the head of the, like the, at the start anymore.
Kristiana Corona:
And I think, um, a lot of us stop ourselves way too early in that process. We stop ourselves when we have two to three ideas, and we're like, "Oh, no, no, no, we can't do that many." Or you start with your first idea, and you never push it or refine it or challenge it enough, um, in enough directions, and then later you realize it wasn't really pushing the needle at all, right?
So I think that's such a powerful framework when we think about, like, just we all have ideas. We probably only hit on, what, 10% of them normally, unless we actually go through the rigor of doing these types of exercises to stretch our thinking.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona:
I'm just wondering if you have any specific case studies or things that you'd be able to share of a business that you worked with, a problem that they had, and how you used these creative solutions to solve it.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Sure. So there's one organization I worked with who had multiple locations internationally, and their challenge was no one's doing things the same, right? That no one's doing the same thing. So we did use Lego Serious Play. This was a team of about... The people in the room, there were about 80 people in the room.
So we used Lego Serious Play, so if you can imagine if I did two or three r- rounds of Lego Serious Play of everyone building two more, everyone building three more, how many ideas we have on a table. And then you, you know, what, what I had each table do is bring them together and come up with one idea per table they would wanna move forward with.
So- What happened at, at this one table with this gentleman, one of his ideas was, "Oh, it would be great if we could use, like, Star Trek's beam me up, Scotty." And, uh, again, if we were in a normal workplace setting, someone would say that, and it'd be like, "Ha ha ha. Throw that one out. What's next? Let's find something more practical."
But because we use creative problem-solving, Lego Serious Play, divergent thinking, that sat on the table, and it probably sat on the table for a good hour and a half until finally, as we were doing convergent thinking, someone looked at it and said, "Well, you know, I don't think we have the technology yet to do that."
She's like, she's like... But this woman was like, "But I-- in college, I did a study abroad program." So, like, having that on the table triggered her to remember her college, her study abroad program, and that's what they moved forward with. They're like, "Let's do, like, a work abroad program. We'll send someone from here to work with the marketing team in Italy for a while, and then we'll gather all the content and come up with something that works for us holistically."
So I think that was like, it was like, maybe they might have come up, up with that outside of Lego Serious Play, but I don't think so.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah, I mean, just the mental connection. Like, you couldn't have drawn a straight line to that idea. It had to be, it had to be association to something else. That's so cool.
So when you think about leaders who adopt these behaviors over time, so they don't just do one workshop, but they continue to practice this over and over with their teams, what do you see as sort of the long-term impact of this way of operating?
Van Lai-DuMone:
So the long-term impact really is, I mean, at the bottom line, the foundation for me is a different culture, right?
A culture that truly believes that all ideas matter and that you're, you're getting people on teams that are... That you're retaining people. Like this, this goes back to why I left my company, my, my full-time corporate job, because I didn't feel like my voice mattered. So what I've seen with organizations who, who practice, and I call it practicing creative leadership and practicing these creative problem-solving tools, what you're finding is that people feel like their voice matters.
And I would say that, I mean, I have no studies that say this, but I would say that when people feel like their voice matters, they feel like they belong, and they have psychological safety to challenge the status quo. If another company comes around and says like, "Hey, we could pay you more," they're gonna question it, right?
Rather than go like, "Absolutely, I'm gonna go." So for me, the long-term value, number one, is that cultural shift, that, uh, that psychological safety, feeling of belonging, feeling my voice matters. For me, that's the foundation, the core of, of the work I do. And then on top of that is innovation, right? You get people who aren't scared to share their voice, and they are now, when an idea comes to them and taps on the shoulder, they're not ignoring it anymore.
They're moving forward with it or at least bringing it up and asking questions about it.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. Yeah. And to your point about psychological safety You're either leading a team towards more psychological safety, or you're crushing it without knowing it. And so I love that, you know, some of these practices can be a way, so if it's not normal for you to open up and allow all the voices in the room to be heard or some of these other things, that this can be an avenue to start operating more in that way.
I think Google had a study, uh, Project Aristotle, where they were identifying, like, what is the number one most important aspect of someone being successful in their job, and it wasn't, like, their tenure and how much experience they had and how skillful they were. It was psychological safety, and it's so critical.
Van Lai-DuMone:
I think so too, absolutely.
Kristiana Corona:
You and I talked a little bit before about where you're at right now, and just you've been doing this a while, so you've got probably 10-plus years of content or more within your own company doing these things. What are you experimenting with next as far as, you know, doing this content and these activities in a way that can scale?
Van Lai-DuMone:
So a couple things that I... And it's, it's interesting, like, how you experiment with things. You're like, okay, that didn't work, that didn't work. And I used to as a business owner think like, oh my gosh, like, I'm just throwing spaghetti at walls. I don't know what I'm doing. And that's a good thing, right? Like, that's how you find the right thing is by trying different things.
So about two years ago, I thought to myself, the only way people get my work is if your company brings me in for your, like, for a group of 30, 40, whatever it is, or if you see me speak at a conference. So how do I get this information out to more people? So I started to do these courses online and in person where I had to do everything, like plan it, recruit for it, all this stuff.
I'm like, oh, this is a lot of work. Like, and, uh, so I was like, okay, that, that is great. That is a way to get to other people. And now again, I'm playing around with that still, but it's pivoted to I wonder how I can take all this content over the past 10, 11 years that I've created and do it in a way where people can find me, whether...
I don't even... I, I mean, I don't know. I'm idea-ing right now. Is it a YouTube channel? Is it digital courses? Something where I don't necessarily have to be in the room for it. Um, so that's sort of my next curiosity, and the other thing that, I mean, I, I, I didn't talk to you about this, but the other thing that I've landed on this year for myself is, you know, it's Year of the Fire Horse, which is really pushing forward and making things happen, but I found that that's how I live all the time, right?
Always pushing forward, always making things happen. I'm not surprised. Yeah. So, so but this year I'm like, okay, you know what? It... Like, if I, if I treat this year like Year of the Flying Hor- uh, Fire Horse, it's same as always. So this year, I'm gonna treat this year as Year of the Content Flying Pig and- ... and I just be, like, grateful that I've gotten as far as I have.
Yeah. Being, like, grateful, like, oh my gosh, look at all the possibility I've created already, and sit in that gratefulness as I open myself up to what's possible and what's next without pushing for it, which is so odd for me.
Kristiana Corona:
That is fascinating to think about, like what is the reverse of that being your operating model all the time?
Yeah. And great rebrand, you know, aligned to your book. Yeah. So that makes sense. Um, cool. Well, I'm excited for that exploration, and I can't wait to see, you know, how you develop this next phase of your business. And if people wanna hear more about you and wanna follow you, where should they go to hear more?
Van Lai-DuMone:
I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so please reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn under my name, Van Ly DeMon. And another thing I'd tell you, like, just call me or email me at least. Maybe not call me, but you can email me at [email protected], and then my book..
Kristiana Corona:
Are you sure you wanna give out your phone number here?
I don't know.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Exactly. Might as well write it on the bathroom wall, right? And then you can also, um, grab a copy of my book. It's on Amazon and Bookshop and Barnes & Noble.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. We'll definitely put the link to your book in here, and your LinkedIn and your, your website as well. So maybe just to wrap us up, if there's one piece of advice that you could give people to just get started.
Maybe they're... You know, the whole thing feels overwhelming, or it feels like a lot of steps. What is one thing they can start doing today?
Van Lai-DuMone:
So I would say the one thing you can start doing today is just, like, I mean, it's a simple thing, but it's hard to remember. It's just that pause, right? A- and I will tell you because that pause has got me to do things like get on a TEDx stage, start this business, write my book.
So when you feel or hear that curiosity tapping you on the shoulder, just pause, right? And you'll hear yourself saying things like, "I can't. Who am I to?" And just try to quiet that voice, and ask the other questions instead. What if? How might I?
Kristiana Corona:
Hmm. Beautiful. I love that. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here.
I really appreciate your time. Uh, I feel like talking to you just is an overflow of creativity, and I'm sure that every room you're in, people just get more... They feel like they're being poured into.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Well, thank you for that. I hope so.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. Yeah. That's the vibe you create. And I think if listeners go out and check out your stuff and see, you know, what you're posting on LinkedIn, they'll see the same, so.
Thank you so much, and we'll talk soon.
Van Lai-DuMone:
Thank you. Yes, we'll definitely be in touch.
Kristiana Corona:
If Van's story resonated with you today, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave us a review, and share this episode with someone who needs a boost of creative energy today. And as always, keep showing up, keep doing the work that matters, and keep leading like you're worthy to lead, because you are. Bye for now.
