Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo :
It's a really great time to ask, is the way we're doing this or is the way we've structured this process or even, you know, how we interact together, is this what we want it to be or is this just something we've inherited by default?
Kristiana Corona:
Ever feel like everyone else has leadership figured out and you're just making it up as you go? I've been there. I spent two decades leading design and technology teams at Fortune 500 companies, and for years I looked like I had everything pulled together on the outside, but on the inside I felt burned out, overwhelmed, and unworthy of the title leader.
Then a surprise encounter with executive coaching changed my life and dramatically improved my leadership style and my results. Now, I help others make that same shift in their leadership. This podcast is where we do the work, building the mindset, the coaching skills, and the confidence to lead with clarity and authenticity, and to finally feel worthy to lead from the inside out
Hello, and welcome back to the Worthy to Lead podcast. I'm your host, Kristiana Corona. I want you to take a look around your company for a second. That status meeting that always runs long, that form that nobody wants to fill out, or that approval chain that has 15 names on it. At some point, someone decided all of this for a reason, and maybe that reason doesn't even exist anymore.
Or maybe no one decided it at all, and it just became the way we do things around here. My guest today asks one deceptively simple question about all of this: Was it designed or was it just a default? And what if we could actually redesign the way that we work to produce more happiness and better results for our business?
Gianmichael Di Lallo, known as GM, is the chief design officer and a partner at Multiplayer, a design studio built on the belief that happiness is good for business. After more than a decade leading design there, he's learned how to spot those defaults and how to rethink your assumptions about what actually creates happiness at work.
And by the way, it is possible to measure happiness. He talks about how you build a culture where the whole team is empowered to design a working environment they actually want to be part of. This is a super interesting topic that is really relevant to a lot of leaders right now who are going through change, who are seeing their culture shift.
So I wanted to bring GM on the show to talk about how they have actually brought happiness into the work culture and what that is doing for their business at Multiplayer. So with that, please welcome my friend GM. All right. Welcome to the Worthy to Lead podcast, and my guest, Gianmichael Di Lallo, also known as GM. Welcome to the Worthy to Lead podcast.
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
Thanks for having me.
Kristiana Corona:
So glad to have you here. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for a long time. I don't know if you knew that, but every time I talk to you, I have in the back of my head, "There's a podcast waiting here."
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
I did not know that and, uh, uh, but I appreciate it. Thank you.
Kristiana Corona:
So in one of our recent conversations, um, and just for context for everyone, GM works at Multiplayer. He is the chief design officer and one of the partners at the organization, and you and your team have started asking some really interesting questions that challenge your assumptions about the way things work.
And I love how you framed it because I think this is something that a lot of us deal with, but we don't even think about it, and that is, are the experiences that we're going through, were they designed or are they just a default? And I'm curious if you could s- sort of explain that concept of what is a default and why are defaults a problem?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
I probably should give credit where credit is due. Um, you know, it was Shane that, Shane Ginsberg, who is an advisor to Multiplayer, who sort of helped us alight on the language of defaults. So he, you know, talked to us about how we're working and said we needed a better way to articulate what it is that we're doing, and he came up with the language around defaults.
And basically, it's that, you know, there's a lot of processes in the way you work, in the way you interact, in the culture that you have, that you've inherited, and maybe at some point someone had a, a reason or a rationale for setting it up that way. But over time- You fall into the, this is just the way things are done, and you stop examining that.
And we're at a really interesting time right now where, you know, tools are changing, companies are changing, the way people are approaching their work is changing. And so it's a really great time to ask, is the way we're doing this or is the way we've structured this process or even, you know, how we interact together, is this what we want it to be, or is this just something we've inherited by default?
Was it designed this way, or did it just sort of evolve on its own and we've just all been happily going along for a long time with it? So, you know, we're really taking a look in our clients and in our own space around what processes and approach to things do we have that are really just defaults that are no longer serving us, and then how do we address that?
Kristiana Corona:
It's interesting too how maybe some of these things tend to be invisible when we first think about them. Like, maybe there's a workflow that you go through every single day. There is a process that you go through even when you get coffee at the coffee shop or when you're filling out forms at the doctor's office.
Like, all of these processes are kind of happening behind the scenes, and they're pretty invisible when you're living in them, unless they're going exceptionally badly, and then you have a reason to complain about things, right? But so, so since they're kind of invisible a lot of the times, how do you get teams to notice the things that maybe they would've stopped looking for just because they're so ingrained in the way that they work?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
In some cases, our teams, it's actually, you know, quite easy for us to sort of spot them, right? It's easy for us to spot the defaults because we end up working with so many different clients, right? And I guess it's worth explaining a little bit about how we work that kind of lends itself to that is, you know, some years ago we sort of switched from a traditional agency model where we get a brief and we negotiate over the brief, and then eventually we start working on it, and we work in our own environment, and every few weeks we would come back with something of, you know, and show it to the client and get the reviews and go back and work on it again.
We stopped doing that as our primary way of engaging clients some time ago, and what we started doing is saying, "We will give you dedicated teams, bring them into your environment, and y- you lead them, and you become the project lead. We'll handle all the management of the team and all the administrative tasks around with management, but you just have the horsepower and the skill sets you need to pursue your own goals," right?
And so, you know, we call that our embedded model. And when we started doing that, you know, there was a lot that we had to put in place to be able to do it, quite a bit of discipline, a lot of new processes, but, you know, five, six years down the road, we're now very good at this. But what it means is when we come into a client's environment, we see how they're working, right?
And then we move to another client's environment, and, you know, we witness all the differences. So the differences are really where we start to see s- where some of those defaults exist, and why are you doing it this way? You know, over at this company, we were seeing this. And we realized that we could Bring more value to our customers and, and to our clients when we started to point those out, and then started to work in their environment and when it's, you know, allowed or appreciated, start to show them a different or better way to, to do that work.
So we could offer more than just the deliverable or just the output. And then you start taking that same thinking and noticing of, of how things are being done, and you start turning it inwards. As we've grown, we've jettisoned and some things we've kept, and some of the things we've kept are to our service and others not.
So we were able to turn that lens inwards, and I guess that's how we start to spot that, and we start to work to really educate the team around, "Listen, you know, you- we want you to be observant of not just what you're doing for the client, but how you're doing it," and then let's start introducing change that way.
Kristiana Corona:
I've seen this several times play out. Obviously, you and I met a few years ago when I was at Amazon, and your team was supporting us in various different teams, and so I was even able to see it across different teams with different players who were embedded and, you know, the real differences between how all of these teams work.
Even though they're within one company, they maybe are d- in different divisions or focused on different outcomes. They have different product team models. There's all these different things, and so it is really amazing to be able to get that view at a higher level of the patterns that you're seeing in these different areas.
What's working well? What isn't working well? And especially those things that are, like, energy drains, I think those are the ones that a lot of us notice, where you have to do a process the same way every time, and it is a tedious process. It is very inefficient, or it's got the most friction possible for the person going through it or even the recipient on the other end.
It's really messy. And I know that, like, one of the philosophies as you guys have grown, and it's just been amazing to see you grow as well, is that you've started focusing on this idea of, um, happiness is good business. And so one of the things that you and I have talked about is, like, those business processes that are so painful and so inefficient that contribute to unhappiness, like those are things to be reinvented.
Those are things that you can control that can then help create that environment that people actually wanna be in. So let's just take a process example. How do you think about taking a process that's maybe painful or inefficient today, and rather than just making it incrementally better, how do you actually make it into something that people actually enjoy and that it contributes to their happiness at work?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
Before I answer that question, if I can just give a little bit of background on Happiness by Design, uh, which is kind of our, um... I think it's worth sort of stating that our creative take or our particular viewpoint of design is that happiness as an outcome is achievable or is a, you know, a goal of the design process.
So I think That started when, you know, someone asked us, you know, a few years ago now, "What really matters to you as, as designers? Why do you exist?" Those kind of, you know, questions probing who, who the company is. And, you know, it was Rob, our CEO, and, um, you know, my, my, uh, partner that said-- And it's worth pointing out that a lot of our work is in, in the B2B space.
And he said, "You know, if some of those people at work are just a little bit happier for having worked with the, the tools and the products that we're putting in their space, then that's a success for us." And, you know, the, the person we were talking to at the time said, "You know, I love that. Now, how do you measure that?
How do you know that you've been successful?" And that really sort of, uh, sent us down a, a rabbit hole of, okay, what has been done in the idea of happiness as an outcome of the design process? And we found, you know, lots of different-- There was some research that was done, and there are different schools of thought on what happiness is and what happiness means and what's the definition of happiness.
And through all of our, you know, very academic explorations, we alighted on one, one definition that we liked and also we thought lent itself very well to, to design. And that's by, uh, Paul Dolan, and he's got a book called Happiness by Design. And in it, he states that happiness is the experience of purpose and pleasure over time.
So the idea is that experiencing things that are either pleasurable or purposeful or a mix of the both repeatedly is a way of sort of elevating your overall happiness. So I mean, very simply, you know, you get a promotion, you're ecstatic, you love it, you know, it's a, it's a big spike of happiness. But then three weeks later, it becomes your norm, and you're not really getting a big sense of happiness from that event any longer, right?
But if you're having coffee with someone, you know, a coworker, like every day at lunch, 15 minutes, and you, you laugh, you have a good time with them, you know, and that's a regular thing, that has a cumulative effect of adding to that, you know, upping that baseline of happiness, right? So the idea is through the design process, can we make sure that people's attention are on the things that either bring them a sense of purpose or connect them to the sense of purpose or give them pleasure, and can we do that in a repeated fashion?
Can you make it fun and purposeful and sustain that? And that is really what happiness by design is about. And so we take that lens to just about every project we work on. And so we've created a lot of materials and a lot of processes to try and make that practical so our designers can harness that, right?
Now, when we take a look at defaults and happiness by design, I think a good example of a project recently was an internal one, which is that any- anyone in agency will know that this is, um, you know, a problem, is at the end of the project, we wanna collate all the information on what did we do for that project and package it up in such a way that we can recall it, get the information back, build a nice case study of it, use it as a proof point to get future business, and so on.
So you've got to kind of close that project down, distill all the learnings, grab all the files, put them into a nice case study format and, you know, there might be multiple angles to the case study in terms of what you're trying to emphasize in the work for different audiences. So shutting down a project is not a small amount of work, and everyone hates doing it.
Like everyone, right? Nobody wants to do it 'cause it's, you know, you get to the end, and it's like, "Oh, great. Here's a nice administrative task that you need to do-" "... to kind of, you know, woo." Um, so, you know, I was talking to-- We have, uh, uh, you know, a, a person that is really supportive of the teams from a, um, an operations and a, uh, we-- It's called our fire starter team 'cause they get in there, and they help set up projects and, and get them running properly so that, you know, the project team can land, and get moving quickly.
But the fire starters are also kind of, uh, you know, the, the fire dousers too. They're the ones that help kind of put out the.
Kristiana Corona:
I like that name, by the way. That's great.
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
Um, so they, um, you know, in this case, it was, uh, Steph, um, tremendously successful and an amazing person in this role, and she was looking at ways to...
You know, I sort of charged her with saying, "Let's make this process better." And so she came back, and she had shown me how she had the forms and the way we had of capturing all this information were really long and arduous. And so she showed us how she'd reduced the size of the forms and how she had, you know, made them a lot easier and had broken them down so that they could be asked throughout the project, so it wasn't all, uh, one big hit, and that they were more tailored to the type of information we'd probably need afterwards.
And, you know, it was a good bit of work, but I asked the question and I said, "Why does it need to be a form anymore?" Like, why are, why are we assuming that a form is the best way to capture this information? and she thought about that, and I said, "Here's an idea," right? Keep a template of the type of information we need.
Take all the project information, dump it into your LLM of choice, and ask it what's missing. What don't we have an answer for from all the information we want based on the files, the retros, all the information we've collated? Dump it in, make the LLM do the work, and tell you what the shortfall is. Then why don't you consider, you know Bringing the, the project lead to lunch, like get on Zoom, buy them lunch, have-- eat together, and ask them the questions that you don't yet have the answers to.
So now it is actually a reward that you're giving to this person. It's, you know, the amount of information that you're requesting from them is the smallest possible because the machine's already done the work, and you know you're gonna get what you want. And so this can be a celebratory moment rather than a wah, wah, now you have, you know, this kind of work.
So you're looking at the default, which is, you know, this horrible administrative process. You're turning it on its, on its head and saying, "Is there a better way?" And then you're focusing on the idea of happiness by design, in this case, like, let's have a celebratory moment around this. Let's give you a little reward, and let's make this a fun social kind of conversation where you can talk about the project.
And that's an example of taking those two separate ideas and, and, and bringing them together for a better result, a happier result.
Kristiana Corona:
So what's interesting about that example is while you did reduce some friction, really it was leaning into the human element of connection as a reward, and how often we just miss the element of it's something simple.
You didn't have to reinvent, you didn't have to make anything extremely fancy. In fact, you made something less fancy, uh, which was messy on the back end, but allowed, you know, the system to do the hard work so that the humans could focus on connection and celebration. I love that.
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
Absolutely.
Kristiana Corona:
I love that. And I think there's so many interesting examples around the happiness element, and one of the things that stood out as you were describing it was that it isn't just, you know, these big, big hit moments, right? These mountaintop moments. It's also the cumulative effect of many small moments of happiness and, and fun and reward.
And I'm curious for your culture, like as you think about your team, are there certain sort of daily or weekly or monthly habits that you have installed to give those micro doses of fun and happiness throughout their work experience? Where like, you know, some, some companies might think about, "Oh, we need to do a, a quarterly recognition event," which is great, you know, and it's kind of a big deal, and people get awards and all this stuff, but then all of the other days in between there, there's nothing.
So what are some of the little things that you do that have made a difference?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
I can give you three examples of, um, things that we, that we do. Um- One is every day we, we hold a stand up for the whole company, 15 minutes. Everyone is welcome to join, and there's a new host every week. So someone else from the team hosts it every week, and they plan an activity, right?
And everyone tries to think of something fun or interesting. Sometimes it's quizzes, sometimes it's like mini art projects. We had a couple recently. Someone did a, you know, took three pictures and said, "Where in the world is this?" And everyone had to kind of guess where it was in the world, and at the end of the week recognized who, who kind of won.
So there's just small little mini games, and then after that little mini game that someone's put together or quiz or information session, we'll do a quick and focused conversation. Like Monday it is, I don't know, HR related and people operations related. Uh, Tuesday I believe it is new business. So, um, we'll talk about what's happening from a new business perspective around the studio.
And Wednesday it's, you know, operations. You know, are there any operational changes that are coming, new things that have, are being dropped in? And, um, Thursday is culture. Anything, uh, related to culture gets brought up at that time. Events, things that are happening around the studio, invites that people are, are putting out there to others, or, you know, learning sessions that someone's putting on all get mentioned at that time.
And then on Friday, which is kind of leading into one of those second things, is we just do Friday kudos. We just give thanks to anyone that's helped us out in the week or give recognition to someone that's really knocked it out of the park. Some people feel comfortable sharing that out loud and some people don't, so there's an accompanying Slack channel where people put in, can put in their, um, you know, their kudos for the week.
And some people are regular contributors, some people are infrequent, but ultimately the idea of, of recognition and, and, and being part of something and is, is pretty important. And another thing that we do is everyone's got a, a town hall, uh, you know, and we do that once a month, and we call it-- we, we call ours the Village Green.
We like the idea of feeling a little smaller than, than a big town hall. And we, um, we start with questions from everybody, and they're often very direct, and I will stand up and, and answer them. And, and in the last year, Tara Macwilliam, who is our COO, has, has kind of co-answered these questions with me and, and occasionally, uh, Cassia, who is our queen of people, um, she, uh, will answer questions as well.
But we try and answer as unvarnished as possible and let people ask those questions and give as direct, uh, an answer as we can. And we also try and always make sure that it's-- the answer is, is grounded in You know, the, um, what's happening in the business at that moment and how that relates to the business.
And what we're trying to do is create a shared sense of purpose around the business, right? And, um, a shared understanding. So that's, you know, the reason for the regular updates on every week on, you know, things that are happening around the company, and then a bigger chance for everyone to ask questions based on what they've witnessed over the last month.
And that is important to allow people to feel connected, to feel, you know, a sense of, of, of purpose and shared purpose in that company.
Kristiana Corona:
Those are fantastic examples. I'm just thinking back to different rhythms and routines I've experienced over the years, and what often happens is someone has a really great idea of what could add value from a culture perspective.
For example, your daily stand-ups and doing a fun activity. Usually, that falls on the same person, and then eventually that person completely burns out, and it's not fun anymore because they have to think of something every day. But what I love is you've kind of made it joint ownership across the board.
Like, there are many different people contributing. There are many... Like, you keep it novel, you keep it fresh and interesting versus having things that are too repetitive or too formulaic because, you know, otherwise that would take the fun and novelty out of it. So that, that's super interesting. And the Friday kudos, I mean, that is always a, a big hit, I think.
And I love that you give people different ways of contributing, so not everyone has to contribute in the same way. If they're more introverted, they can, you know, or just don't feel comfortable competitive talking in a large environment, they can use Slack or other methods. That's brilliant. So you talked about you've experienced quite a bit of growth, which is amazing.
Um, and a lot of times when companies go through that inflection point of, we were a small company, it was easy to maintain our culture, it was easy to do fun things because there was only, you know, ten of us or fifteen of us, and now there's seventy of us or however many you have now. You know, is it really achievable?
Is it really possible to have happiness as a company culture when you scale? Um, I think that's a, an ambitious goal.
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
Yeah. Um, we've encountered the challenges of growth. I mean, um- For perspective, the company started in North America with just Rob and I, and for a long time we were a small team of ranging from 12 to, to 20, and that growth took us about, you know, of the 12 years I've been there, that was about, you know, seven and a half, eight of the years we were about that size.
And then we had a few big breakthroughs, and one was how changing the model of how we worked was definitely, um, one of the big catalysts for that. And, um, in a-- in just a few years, we doubled and doubled again, and so we very rapidly found ourselves with a team of 80. And as you pointed out, you know, when you've got your arms around everyone and you're involved in every project, it's very easy to maintain a culture.
And as you get to a point where you can't put your arms around anyone anymore, I'd say probably somewhere, you know, around the 45 to 50 range, culture really starts to change, and then again from there. So, you know, we've worked really hard to try and make sure that everything remains positive and that we remain-- keep that happy culture.
And I think that's the secret to it. So I guess the first question is, can you do it? Yes, I believe you can. And I believe that the secret is constant reevaluation of what you're doing. Um, you can't set and forget anything because things, you know, stop working at a certain size, or things get old, or things get stale.
Or if you know, so you have to keep looking at what you're doing critically and allowing people to express discontent and then get to the root of that and then try and, and, and deal with how you're doing it. And since I can't put my arms around everyone anymore, I have to invest more trust in my directors and them in their senior leads and so on and so forth to recognize and make change at their level and to recognize what their teams and what their people need in that moment.
So, you know, by empowering everyone with this mission and, um, working hard to make sure that people understand the outcomes that we're hoping to achieve, then, then they can find ways to kind of get there and, and, and move people in, in that positive direction. So I think that it's equal parts kind of, you know, um, well, letting go of, of the sense of control of the culture, but giving people enough of, um, a sense of, of You know, direction and where they wanna go with it so that they are empowered to, to pursue that mission.
Kristiana Corona:
And it kind of, uh, echoes back to the conversation where we started around defaults. And at every phase, at every stage of growth, there are going to be things that have become a default, and maybe you did design them a certain way, but then there's always a moment of reevaluation, right? So being able to say, now at this stage with this level of people, is this still viable?
Is this still meaningful for us? And being able to continually measure that. And one of the other things you mentioned was that you have some different dimensions by which you can actually measure those things. Um, and I think you mentioned before this that there were four dimensions of happiness that you measure: purpose, pleasure, attention, and time.
So I'm curious, like, as you go through these evaluations, um, how do you use those metrics to determine if you're on track and if you're successful?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
What we ultimately do is kind of take a look at, you know, um, we create-- obviously we're, we're, we're creating surveys, checking in with our, with our, our team as often as possible.
We have a continuous feedback mechanism, so we're, we're taking a look at what's the sentiment there. And obviously we're, we're, uh, as I mentioned, we're asking people to ask questions and, and voice comments ev-every kind of m-month. So we've got a lot of different touch points to see how the team is doing and how the team is feeling.
We put a lot of energy into mentorship, into the, uh, one-on-one r- um, meetings and relationships that our, that our managers and, you know, leads have with their direct reports so that we're hopefully fostering, um, you know, an environment of trust where when people have problems, they can bring them forward.
And we're looking, you know, a lot for, you know, are people having fun? Are they connecting with people? When we're having events, are, are, are people showing up for them or not showing up for them? You know, are we hitting the right tone with, with what we're doing? You know, do people feel connected to their job?
Do they feel connected to the studio as a whole? Do they feel that there is opportunity for growth for them, right? So, you know, those are some of the purpose and pleasure aspects of it. When we take a look at time, we're saying, you know, are we hitting those notes consistently? You know, are we doing things in a consistent manner?
And is this something that is done frequently enough to actually help raise those baselines? Do we temper that with things to look forward to, um, so that, you know, it's not everything is, is routine, but there are moments to kind of, uh, shoot for. And attention really comes into the work itself. Like, if people are focused and people are happy and feeling connected to it, you look at the work, and the work, you can see that their attention and their care is on the work.
And, you know, we're constantly Making sure that the work is going out, our clients are happy with it, our people feel proud of it. You know, we're going through multiple reviews and catching it and helping, you know, making sure that, you know, things g- don't go out the door that we're not happy with. And the more motivated and happy your team is, the less problems you see with attention to detail and quality.
So I think those are some of the, the litmus tests that we, you know, that we put out there that we're looking for when we start to see signals that people are feeling disconnected from the studio or that people are not showing up for events or are kind of talking about burnout or being stressed or tired in a situation.
When we start seeing a lot of mistakes in the work, these are some of the things that really help us, you know, look at, okay, what's going on here and what aren't we doing to, to foster a happy, motivated team?
Kristiana Corona:
I've seen behind the scenes probably more than a lot of people in how much you invest time and energy and attention to these things, and I have known for a long time, like there is this general sense of, I don't know if it's contentment or long-term happiness, like being with your organization.
You guys have a super high retention rate over time, and so, you know, when I think about other companies who maybe aren't as focused on this aspect or who maybe just wanna move in that direction of trying to make this idea, this ethos of happiness, uh, a little bit more tangible in their organizations, like what would you tell people about how they could get started doing that?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
I think that worth pointing out here is also our end goal at Multiplayer is that Rob and I are never looking to sell the company. We're, we're more inclined to let the next generation of leaders take over the company, and we wanna create an evergreen company that keeps growing, and you know, we would like to stay attached to this company, you know, well into, become advisors to it instead of necessarily working every day, let other people take over the reins.
And when you think about a company that way, well, you really have to invest in the people because that is your, your ticket to success, right? So I would say, you know, first, if you want to make people more hap- you know, happier, like let's take a look at how you're thinking about your business and how you're structuring your business, right?
And is a long retention period really in your best interest and all of that. It's all connected. So for us, hanging on to people that understand the business, that care about the business, that are attached to the business, and frankly are connected with us and feel that's important to our business plan.
So I think that it's, it's not just something we're, we're doing because it's cool to do or because it really is intrinsic to what we're trying to build. So I think that that's really important. Take a look at the structure of what you've set up, and is it conducive to that kind of environment?
You know, do you have the foundation to build a happier culture on? Or, you know, are you looking for a really quick sell and what you just need is everyone to get on board and hustle, hustle, hustle till you get that paycheck, and then everyone goes their separate ways? I mean, if that's your goal, then, you know, the way we're conducting business might not align to yours, right?
So I'd say that do a little soul searching and look at the structure of your company and decide whether or not that's actually the way you wanna go, 'cause it does take time and commitment. And from there, I'd say you're gonna have to get used to the discomfort of hearing people out and meeting them where they're dissatisfied, right?
It's uncomfortable because you've built something, you're proud of something, you've done all these things. You've, you've given people all these benefits. You know, you've, you've done this, you've done that, you know. Um, you're, you're hustling every day to make sure that everyone's got work, and yet they're still unhappy, right?
And you have to be willing to listen to that and, and make changes constantly. And, you know, there's also a generational play in there, right? Different generations have different values, and you have to try and listen to all of it Without an eye roll or without a, you know, um, you know, so I'd say that, you know, you have to listen to it, you have to empathize, and then say, "Okay, well, how can we make this work for the company and for the individuals that make up the company?"
So I think there's that part of the discipline is there. And then, you know, I think you have to recognize that that can be your intention, but you have to learn how to articulate that and make that everyone's goal. Because you're not going to be able to impose a culture of happiness. This can't be strictly top-down driven, right? Everyone must be happy. I've given you all this stuff.
Kristiana Corona:
This is your mandate.
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
This is your mandate, right? Go be happy. Right? You have to make that everyone's mission. You have to make it so that everyone feels empowered to say like, "Hey, you know what? This person is-- they've got a tough client. You know, the day-to-day is, is hard.
What can we do for them to kind of alleviate some of that stress? How do we work differently? What support can we give them? What hard conversations can we have with the client or with this person to change the dynamic there that's not making people happy?" You know, so you have to be willing to look at the problems and not just say, "Well, figure it out."
You have to support people through that.
Kristiana Corona:
It seems to require quite a bit of, um, well, first of all, humility to listen openly and with intention when people are telling you the things that are going wrong. And then also from a coaching aspect, I assume there's just a lot of coaching moments that are happening here where, like you said, that you can't avoid all the hard things.
It's not about avoiding every bad situation, every tough client, every difficult conversation. It's more about acknowledging that those things are part of the job, and what support does this individual need to feel empowered to handle those things well? And I've seen moments in the past where I think you all have said, "Hey, this situation is really difficult for this person.
How can we give them a passion project on the side? How can we refuel them? How can we think about the length of time they're dedicated to this particular situation and, you know, try something else in between, give them a little bit of a hiatus from this and then try something else," or, you know, whatever.
Uh, it's a constant game of looking at the individual, seeing the individual, and, uh, working through what they need, which that, that is just the next level of commitment, I would say. How do you make that work?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
The first thing is when we first started doing our Village Green and we were going through our big growth spurts was the time that was the most challenged culturally And our questions, I don't love anonymity in companies.
I like people to learn how to have the hard conversations, but we felt that we needed to have an anonymous forum so questions would come into the village green and people could ask them. And, you know, anonymity has the unfortunate effect of making people ask the question in the most uncivil way possible.
So at first, I would get the questions cold, right in front of everyone. I'd be asked this question, it would be charged in the way it was asked, and then I'm on the spot to answer. And that was really, really hard because I'm human too, and I'm going to react to things, right? So what we started doing is asking the questions exactly how they were written down, but we'd do a pre-read so that we can get past the emotional part of it and recognize that one simple fact is that The end of the day, I doubt you're ever going to find someone in your company that's actively trying to wreck shit.
Everyone wants, you know, good things for the company, good things for themselves, good things for their teammates, and people just disagree on how to get there. So when you are being asked a question, when you're being confronted with something, when someone's complaining about something that's not working, I think what you have to do is, one, give yourself time and space to react to it.
You know, give yourself a little bit of room, and then kind of lock onto that, that truth that this person isn't here because they want to make something worse. They're here because they want to make something better, right? And it's your job to try and help them figure out what that is and how to get there, right?
And it's not the case that you always can, right? And then you have to be able to say that straight, "Look, what you're asking for just isn't achievable," or, "We can't do that," or, you know, "I think you're asking for this thing, but I don't think you've diagnosed the problem correctly." Right? But sometimes you can give them that, that thing.
But either way, I'd say give yourself the time and space to react or to have that emotional moment. Give yourself a just let me think about that for a second kind of time out, and then look at it from the standpoint that this person most likely has positive intent, and now you've got to discover what that intent is and approach it from that angle.
And that is not easy because, you know, someone comes forward with a complaint, and for a lot of us, certainly for me, defensiveness is kind of that first place, and you've got to kind of get through that And then look at the underlying issue and say, "Can we do better? Or is this person maybe a little off base?"
And if they are off base, I've got to be straight with them, right? And if they're-- and if they've got a point, I got to be straight with myself and, and the team around me on how to address this.
Kristiana Corona:
I just feel like hearing the way you talk about this is an eg- a perfect example of human-centered leadership, and being able to have tough conversations with emotional intelligence and knowing what you need to support yourself in that moment, and being able to show up with the long game in mind.
Like not reacting in the moment and feeling like, wow, that was a really inappropriate question, or that, that hurts, or whatever that is. But allowing yourself time to pass through those emotions and then say, "What is the long game of this ask? And can I accommodate that, or is that at off, you know, off base, and that's not gonna happen?"
And being able to say both messages equally confidently. Yeah, that takes a lot of, of human-centered, um, leadership and courage and refinement over time. So I just, I love these stories, and I think it's a great example of the fabric of what it takes to develop a company that has a culture of happiness.
And it isn't all sunshine and rainbows. It isn't avoiding friction. It isn't that you never get hard questions. It's just how you navigate those things and the intention behind them that really stands out to me. So thank you so much for sharing all of this. Uh, I feel like there's probably 500 questions we could go into to dive deeper, but I would just encourage people to connect with you and hear more about your mission and what you're doing, and the amazing design work that you do.
So if people want to connect with you and continue that conversation, how do they find you?
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find because there aren't too many John Michaels with the spelling of my name. Um, so just look up Giamichael Di Lallo on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to connect with people there, or you can email me at [email protected].
Kristiana Corona:
Perfect. Thank you so much for coming in today. Uh, this conversation was such a pleasure.
Gianmichael "GM" Di Lallo:
No, thank you, Christianna. I appreciate it.
Kristiana Corona:
I hope this conversation resonated for you, and that you enjoyed thinking about how you might integrate more happiness into your work culture. If you want to hear more episodes like this, go ahead and subscribe to our podcast at worthytolead.co/subscribe.
You'll also find all the links to the resources, the books that GM talked about in the show notes for this episode. Before we go, I have to make a quick plug for something I'm very excited about that's coming out in October. We have a brand-new course coming out about executive storytelling and helping you to learn the skills that you need to pitch big ideas to gain funding.
If you're on our email list, you will be one of the first to find out more about this and actually get access to the course, so you won't want to miss it. If you're not on our email list, you should go ahead and sign up. As always, keep showing up, keep doing the work that matters, and keep leading like you're worthy to lead because you are. We'll see you next time.
