Lexie Spiro:
When you have a good idea, you're gonna encounter like a thousand moments when there's like a really good reason that you're confronted with why your idea isn't good. And you've got to have the fortitude to press through a lot of those moments while also questioning it and just finding that right balance
Kristiana Corona:
Ever feel like everyone else has leadership figured out and you're just making it up as you go?
I've been there. I spent two decades leading design and technology teams at Fortune 500 companies, and for years, I looked like I had everything pulled together on the outside. But on the inside, I felt burned out, overwhelmed, and unworthy of the title leader. Then, a surprise encounter with executive coaching changed my life and dramatically improved my leadership style and my results.
Now, I help others make that same shift in their leadership. This podcast is where we do the work, building the mindset, the coaching skills, and the confidence to lead with clarity and authenticity, and to finally feel worthy to lead from the inside out
Hello, and welcome back to the Worthy to Lead podcast. I'm your host, Kristiana Corona. So glad you're making time to be here with us today. I have a very special guest. Uh, welcome to the podcast, Lexie.
Lexie Spiro:
Thank you.
Kristiana Corona:
I'll just do a real brief intro of Lexi in case you don't know him. Lexi Sparrow is a seasoned design executive with more than 20 years leading design and research for Fortune 500 organizations.
And he spent almost 15 years at Motorola leading a global design team innovating for public safety and also enterprise security. In 2021, he left Motorola and joined Amazon, where he's building an incredible team, which I was fortunate to be a part of. That's how we met. He and his team helped to design and roll out the expansion of Rivian electric delivery trucks.
They worked on Amazon supply chain services, three-hour delivery, one-hour delivery, and also Amazon Now, which is 30 minutes or less. So the innovations just continue to roll out. It's really a mind-blowing space to be a part of. The work that this team does actually touches both the customer experience, so the things that you're thinking about when it comes to delivery as an Amazon customer, and also the back-end tools.
One of the biggest problems that we talked about frequently was that teams don't think big enough, and often they constrain their thinking because they're worried about being rejected. And then when they do present their ideas, they go into the boardroom, and they get flustered, right? Because they haven't prepared sufficiently for the objections that come up or the inevitable concerns about the idea.
And so what happens is it leads them to thinking small and to just doing iterative changes. You know, fixing paper cuts. It's never anything that actually moves the needle. And one of the things I really appreciate about Lexy is he does the opposite of that. So I thought what we could do today is just have sort of a mini master class where Lexy can share some of his formula for how he innovates, how he thinks in an unconstrained way, and just tell some interesting stories. So welcome to the show.
Lexie Spiro:
Thanks. And I wanted to start by just saying thank you for, uh, having me join you in your podcast. And it's been super fun for me to follow along on your journey since you left the team and the company to start off on your own. It's just awesome. It's so inspiring. And, um, to get to hear some of the other podcast interviews you've done, it's just great stuff.
And for anyone who's listening in to this one because you know me, I highly recommend that you browse through the other content that Kristiana has developed because it's, it's just really wonderful.
Kristiana Corona:
I'm gonna have to hire you as my marketer 'cause that was amazing. Thank you. What I'd love to start with for our conversation today is just unconstrained thinking.
And when you think about, like, coming up with big ideas, you have to come up with big ideas all the time. How do you do that? How do you think about unconstraining your thinking?
Lexie Spiro:
Well, first of all, thank you for your kind words, but, uh, I assure you there's lots of people in my circle who I get inspired from and who we share ideas.
And so my way of thinking about things is nothing more than sort of just like a, a collection of conversations and really brilliant people around me that I've been fortunate enough to work with over many, many years. A lot of this stuff is borrowed from a lot of brilliant people around me.
Unconstrained thinking, uh, I mean, I guess the first thing I would say about unconstrained thinking is that it requires constraints. Like there, there's no such thing as unconstrained thinking. I think that Constraints are thought of as being rigid when you think of like typical like constrained thinking.
But in unconstrained thinking, what you really want to be doing is playing with those constraints and having them be more of like a fluid concept. So like, you know, when we're developing concepts, for me, I'm always thinking of like, it's not just a blank sheet of paper or a blank whiteboard. There's all kinds of real-world things that we need to be aware of, and there's all sorts of trade-off decisions that need to be made when you're designing something amazing.
And so what we try to do really is just, uh, play around with like what constraints we're gonna be paying attention to any particular concept.
Kristiana Corona:
I forgot to mention earlier that you are a classically trained industrial designer.
Lexie Spiro:
Yes.
Kristiana Corona:
And I'm curious what impact the industrial design principles and how you used all of that impacts the way you think about constraints today?
Lexie Spiro:
Well, in physical product design, industrial design, there are real-world constraints. There's, you know, physics and the way that plastic is formed and, and, and the way things need to be assembled, and some of those things are fairly immutable. But so you're never working from a completely blank sheet of paper, but you can sort of like optimize around one thing and trade off everything else associated with that decision.
And then that becomes one concept, and then quickly just push that aside and go, "Okay, what's the next concept? Well, what if we optimize around this thing and everything else gets traded off? Uh, and what does that start to materialize as?" And so unconstrained thinking to me is actually this process of like sifting through the various constraints that, you know, um, that you're gonna have to make decisions around, and being able to rapidly sort of like build around them, move it aside, and then do it again and again and again times a hundred.
So it's really the rapid process of kind of like setting up a bunch of constraints, designing within those constraints, and then like pushing those away and then doing it again. Um, and the faster you can do that, the more cycles of that you can go through, the more innovative the work is.
Kristiana Corona:
It's really fascinating hearing you talk about the speed at which you go through ideas, because I think one of the common traps is for us to polish an idea and to sit with something, and then it becomes our baby, and then we polish it, and we polish it, and then we're very convinced.
We've sunk so much energy and cost into that one idea that we will sit there and defend that one idea as being the right idea, and we've never even explored more than two or three other things, right? And so your, your way of iterating through that never keeps anything too precious.
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah, it's true. Um, I think there's also an aspect of, like socializing these ideas, and if you're coming up with lots of different concepts and bouncing your ideas off of other people's ideas, when presented with a problem or business challenge you wanna solve for, it's never sort of like your first answer to that question that is the good one.
It's not even like your, your, your twentieth idea is any good. To me, it's like it's when you have 20 ideas on the table and then you process like, "Oh, well, idea number five and number eight together, that's interesting." And if you kind of like take that approach and apply it to idea number 15, um, we can come up with this other idea, which becomes idea number 21 and then 22 and 23 and 24, and it just keeps going and going and going.
You keep generating more and more ideas, and it's really just the comparing and contrasting of the ideas that you have on the table and socializing them and seeing how people react to them. I think that's a big source of innovation for me. It requires other people, it requires diversity of thought, and it requires just like those collisions of, of ideas happening and, um, and being ready for that and sort of like allowing yourself to like follow that process and follow that lead and, um, and see where it takes you.
And so to your point, like you can't be precious about any one of them. You sort of have to like let it play.
Kristiana Corona:
And at the end of the day, it almost doesn't matter whose idea it was. You've just been so busy playing this yes and game that you're able to get to something that clearly is better than where you started. And it's like a synthesis of all those different people and those perspectives and those yes, and moments.
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. Like, kind of like how I was talking about my, my design leadership, you know, practice and how I build teams is really just like a, a synthesis of lots of different ideas coming together and bouncing off one another that I've had the privilege of being able to experience in different parts of my career from other brilliant leaders around me.
Kristiana Corona:
So when you think about, you know, sitting down to actually start doing this activity, where do you get inspiration?
Lexie Spiro:
I'm a big believer in first principles, and if you're familiar with first principles, it's this practice of stripping back, like, the solution space that you're operating within to kind of ignore the way that you've, you know, been solving this problem historically or way that others are solving the problem and stripping it back to, like, the actual root problem that you're trying to solve.
So getting this really crisp definition of the foundational, most primitive, basic problem that you're trying to solve, and then from there being free to innovate and come up with new ways of solving that problem. And so I find that, like, especially in a big corporation, a big successful corporation especially, we really get caught up in, you know, the way things work here.
And, and that becomes, you know, obviously, when it's successful, it's really easy to sort of say, like, "Well, it's been working for us. Let's just keep doing it." But I, I just find that there's so much opportunity if you actually just strip it back and look at it again. L-look at the same problem you've been solving for years, but go back to that problem, uh, define it in a really crisp way.
Like the next thing that happens is you start coming up with ideas on how to solve them. Like it just naturally kind of flows from that. So we've actually, um, we've taken that concept to a pretty far extreme. Uh, in my team, we define what we call durable customer outcomes, which are things that are important about the experience for this person that we're designing for, whether they be a shopper or someone who's working in a delivery station or whatever it is.
And we define those in terms of like this is what's always gonna be important about this experience. Like every stage of their journey from, from, you know, if there's someone coming to work every day, it's like from when they wake up in the morning and when they start to think about showing up for work and going through the process of, uh, arriving at their job and stepping through all the things that they need to do to be successful in their role, um, and thinking about those things over long periods of time, like weeks and months of being in that role.
And when we're, when we're designing that experience, there's things about that that are always gonna be important, and we may be solving them in a particular way to that today, like we may have an app for that right now. Um, but there may be like much more interesting and much more effective ways of solving a problem that involve new technologies that we weren't aware of before or just new ways of thinking about it.
And so we've, we've set up this framework of durable customer outcomes to describe every experience we ever design for across all those user types that you mentioned at the beginning of this. And it just becomes like this map for people in the org, people in, in the design team to always know what, what is the goal, uh, what is the root problem you're looking to solve And it's freeing for them to then be able to launch into, uh, like, just all the different ways that you could, you could think of to solve that problem.
And it's a way for us to organize it and structure it and measure it and all those great things.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah, I was hoping you'd say measure because I remember my interview with you, uh, when I first joined, and I thought I was gonna totally throw you for a loop because I was like, "Ooh, what, what difficult questions could I ask?"
When it got to be my turn to ask questions. And I remember asking you, like, "How do you measure the success of the experience from a design perspective or, you know, not beyond the data and the business case? Like, how can you actually prove the value?" And you're like, "Well, let me tell you about these things called durable customer outcomes."
And it's true, like, finding the thing that is going to be consistently true about that experience over time and then saying the way we solve for that, the how, is going to always shift. And that's what we innovate towards. But those, those fundamental principles of what do we need to accomplish here are consistent.
And I just love that the team has been able to do that because then you can kind of layer that into, well, how do we know that we're innovating against the right constraints, right? Like, sometimes you think about, well, the technology is constraining us. I can't do this because we have legacy technology, or I can't do this because it's just not physically possible today, or this rule exists, or this safety concern exists, right?
But if you're focused on the durable customer outcome and sort of that higher level objective, there's many different ways that you can get around some of those other constraints that a lot of people get stuck on. So how do you think about, like, what constraints to let go of when it comes to thinking big?
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. This is where companies get caught up a lot. We actually have another framework called horizon planning, where we think about decisions that we need to make in executing design for the first horizon that you can see. Like, this is like today's roadmap. Like, we have a plan. We're, we wanna get this stuff out to customers as fast as possible.
And so we're, we're designing, we're innovating, we're creating great products. But you're doing that with very much within today's constraints. Like, you can't invent some new material in the, you know, couple of sprints that we have, uh, before we want to, you know, launch the first version of this thing.
So you have to kind of work with what you've got. Actually, there was a brilliant, one of my favorite people I've ever worked with was this executive at Motorola named Chris Rapala, and she used to, she used to refer to this mode of thinking as, um, like, pantry discussions. It's like when you need to make dinner and you don't have enough time to go to the store and you-- where you could buy any ingredient you want and make anything you want, you kinda just go into your pantry, and that's all you've got.
Like, that's what you, you're gonna make dinner out of. Uh, and so at, in, in the office, she would often have, like, she would often say, like all right, we need to have a pantry discussion about this. Like, what can we make with what we've got? Um, that's a very horizon one type of, uh, mindset, but I think it's important to have something like horizon planning 'cause I wanna also push the team to think about, okay, what's the horizon two version, like the next horizon of this idea?
And in that one, you're not looking in the pantry, you're looking. Like, you can look up new recipes, new cuisines. Like, you can go shopping and buy exotic ingredients. You can do anything you want. You just have to imagine it. Uh, and so I really always, always think about that. And, I also, I just think that, like, teams Often trip up on having the wrong kind of conversation in the wrong moment.
Like they'll conflate these two things. Like what would be an amazing experience and what can we-- and what will be the best possible experience, you know, with what we have today, given today's constraints? Like, those need to be two very different conversations. Um, and I think I, I, you know, I see teams struggle where they're debating the design decisions they're making.
Like designers will be like, "Oh, I wanna make, I wanna design it like this." And their product partners are saying like, "No, that's, I disagree. I disagree with that design." And they're saying they disagree with putting it in this release because they, they just know that it's too expensive. We don't have time.
We're not gonna be able to get it, you know, be able to meet our goal, uh, whatever constraint they've got. Um, but what the designer interprets that as is like, "Well, that des- that idea was not good." And that's why you need to have separate conversations. Like you need to have a conversation about like what would be an amazing design first.
You know, it's powerful for the designer in that moment to acknowledge that, like, "I know we can't build this today, but it would be an amazing design if we could accomplish XYZ." And then the product partner needs to be able to say, "We can't build that today, but like, you're right. That is correct. Like that would be an amazing experience.
And we should think about that as our North Star. We-- maybe we can get to it next quarter." Uh, and then shift gears. "Okay, now that we know that that's what we're gonna eventually get to, and that's what we would love, um, what can we do in order to edge ourselves toward that, like incrementally?" Um, so we used to have a, this, this way of thinking at Motorola called backcasting.
Where it's like, you know, teams can incrementally innovate or, you know, build capabilities and increase the value of what they're building over time, stepping forward from this, like today's status quo in an incremental way. Um, and that's how, you know, most products are built. But at a certain point, every now and again, you wanna be able to sort of like time travel into the future and imagine, like just put away all those constraints that were causing you to do those small increments and just imagine what would be an incredible experience and really, like immerse yourself in that world.
Like, what would that feel like? What would that be like? You know, how would that change things for, for people? Um, and then once you're fully immersed in that world, then ask yourself, "Okay, here we are in, you know, some future year. How must we have gotten here?" And then instead of forecasting incrementally based on what you know, now we're taking this amazing concept and backcasting what we must have done in order to arrive at that.
And then that becomes your new roadmap, and that becomes very powerful too. It's a way to sort of like reframe what your team's plan is in a more radical way. 'Cause we don't call it backcasting here at Amazon, but a similar thing exists where we, you know, as customer obsession is the number one leadership principle, and we are always working backward from the customer and envisioning what that ideal experience would be first, the first step.
Kristiana Corona:
I think a great example of that, and I love that explanation because it kind of makes people turn their thinking on their head a little bit, right? Like when you have to imagine how you could have built this future and work backwards from that, and then say, "Well, how does that change our next action?"
I think a great example of that is the quick delivery services that are, you know, under an hour. I mean, if back when we started those conversations, how many conversations were about how impossible that would be, right? Impossible.
Lexie Spiro:
It's a good example. Like, uh, let's say we decide we wanna, you know, deliver in under thirty minutes, which is what we're, we're doing with Amazon now.
If we were to increment forward from the status quo, like a year ago, uh, we would quickly m-m- hit a constraint that would prevent us from doing that. Like, you just can't do that with our network, with the way that our, you know, inventory is housed and the way we place, uh, our, you know, selection.
But if you really want to deliver that speed, then and you'd ask yourself what if, if that, if that's true, if we are doing that, then what must we have done in order for that to happen? It's like, well, then we rethought the network. Like, we actually just put buildings in different places, um, as the only way that you could ever get there.
And so then we just did that. And so, uh, I'm very excited about that. That's actually rolling out, you know, across the country. Uh, it's available in a bunch of cities today. And it's, uh, for those of you who haven't experienced it yet, uh, I'm a big customer, um, which is always to be a customer of something that you designed, uh, firsthand.
So gratifying. It's awesome. I'm maybe I'm biased, but it's an awesome experience.
Kristiana Corona:
It is amazing, and it's also a really just wonderful example of how if you don't like the constraint, the thing that's blocking you from getting there, then redesign the constraint itself. Redesign the network. I mean, that's, that's a huge ask, but, but you did it.
Lexie Spiro:
This can manifest in a bunch of ways. Like, you might be, you know, forecasting and building, you know, incrementing your way forward and realize that you can't do what you wanna do because you'd have to hire, like, an additional twenty software developers, let's say. Um, and you just don't have that, or you don't have the budget to hire that many people.
You know, it happens all the time. But if you're using this backcasting model, at some point, you're basically saying, like: "Well, this is the vision. Like, this is what we want, and we have to get there." And so when you backcast from that ideal experience, eventually you get to this place where you're like, "Well, we have to hire them.
Like, we just have to right away." And that's where you see teams reshaping themselves. It happens all the time at Amazon. It happened all the time at Motorola, which is a brilliantly, uh, innovative company where these, these teams like remake re- you know, redefine what they're doing, remake themselves based on like, you know, realizing that they're the way they're set up today isn't gonna get them, get them where they want to go.
And so that, that kind of like free-thinking, free-flowing thinking and that ability to sort of like every now and again pick your head up and look up, look out a couple of horizons, um, is so important.
Kristiana Corona:
There was a conversation I was having recently with a McKinsey strategist, and she was talking about executive teams.
This is what they struggle with, is making the change necessary away from the way they did it the year before to invest in something differently, to reorganize towards whatever that goal is. If they just did that shift, they could actually make the goals that they want achievable. But it takes such a, a willingness to be flexible and to allow things to not be the way they've always been, and that can be the most challenging part, really, of all of it.
Lexie Spiro:
I think Jerry Seinfeld said, like... I was watching one of his, uh, stand-up shows, and he was talking about how, like, the most ridiculous phrase in the English language is like, "It is what it is." Um, what does that even mean, it is what it is? That's such a stupid thing to say, but people say it all the time.
Kristiana Corona:
Nothing I can do. Yeah.
Lexie Spiro:
You're kind of in a corporate setting. It's like, "Well, it is what it is. Uh, so move on." Uh, it's like, well, no, show me something that is what it is, and I'll show you something that probably shouldn't be that thing. Like, let's talk about this, you know?
Kristiana Corona:
Yes, 1000%. Um, okay, so you've gone through your exploration of ideas.
You have iterated on them. You've brought other people into your process. You've refined them. You've figured out, okay, this is a thing that is worth investing in. Now you have to figure out how to communicate that and get buy-in. So I'm curious if you can kind of walk us through your process of, say, you've got a big idea, you want to pitch it, or you want to communicate it somehow. How do you take that raw idea and structure it into thoughts?
Lexie Spiro:
Structure is important. I also think that you have to be, uh, unafraid to fail. Like, I pitch a lot of ideas, and only a subset of them land in the right way such that, like, action is taken, and that's, that's okay. I look at that like if I'm not, if I'm not pitching ideas that are not well received, I'm not pushing hard enough.
And so, you know, regardless of how you structure them, like only a subset of the things that I'm pitching are gonna be landing the right way. So just get comfortable with that. The other thing is like back to Jerry Seinfeld, who's one of my heroes. I saw a video where he was talking about his process and, um, it's super iterative.
But he's not up there just winging it and telling jokes either. Like, every syllable that he utters is, like, meticulously planned and it comes off-- Like, when you see him perform, it's like, like it, it seems conversational, but he's actually like... He spends many, many, many months on a bit just workshopping it.
He'll try it out on people. He'll, he'll do small comedy shows and, like, just workshop it to death to the point where it's dialed, and then he'll deliver it on the big stage. And I use the same kind of process. Like, again, not smart enough to just, like, know how to pitch this thing and what will be the key, like, what will be, like, the hook that'll grab people.
'Cause a lot of the stuff, like, I, I mean, if you're innovating, especially in a position like this, like the complexity of Amazon and the scale of it, like there's no simple solution to anything. And so the way that you need to pitch needs to. There's a lot of complexity that goes into figuring that out. Um, actually going through this right now, actually someone we mutually admire greatly, Meghan Tank.
Kristiana Corona:
Ah, yes.
Lexie Spiro:
She and I have, like, a really cool, uh, idea that is pretty innovative and groundbreaking, and, um, she and I have been, like, working on this for a few months and just going back and forth, like, just pitching back to each other.
And every time we do, we, like, unlock some new way of thinking about it or talking about it.
Kristiana Corona:
Hmm.
Lexie Spiro:
Like, "Oh, this is the way we could convince this person about this idea." There's no shortcut here. For me, um, you just have to workshop it, uh, which is fun
Kristiana Corona:
So you have told me in the past, sometimes you'll write an outline, and then you'll go in and rearrange the pieces of the outline, or you'll write little bits and then rearrange the little bits and then figure out, have I created something where the impact is noticeable up front?
You'll have like some different questions that you challenge yourself on. So you might write something out or have a certain structure and then look at it and then come back and just move things around quite a bit, which I found fascinating because sometimes people will just write something and then say, "Well, that, that is the structure.
That's what I wrote. Maybe I'll change a little grammar, and then I'll send it." But when you talk about being intentional, you're really getting down to the order of the words, how it flows. Is it direct enough? Have I hit on these objections? Um, every word matters, right?
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah, very much. The writing process, as you know, at Amazon, it's like very dear to us, the document process.
And so much of it is about, like it's not about the document you come up with in the end. It's about the journey to get there and the act of writing giving clarity. So I, I'll quickly put pen to paper and jot down my ideas just to pressure test the thinking. But to your point, like I've never written something and that first draft was like, "Yeah, that, that-- nailed it."
Never. The process of writing that first draft always makes me realize that that first draft is not good and that there's a way to tighten it up. Uh, there's a way to like emphasize, like you said, like some, some really important point. I think like a lot of people, especially earlier in their careers, and I was this way also, make the mistake of trying to like build up the like spool up this narrative to set the groundwork for your audience before and then at the end, it's like, "In conclusion, this is what we've decided."
And I learned this lesson, you know, uh, many years ago, um, and it's something that I like coach all the time, but like you have to just get straight to the point. Like what is the answer to the question? Some people will actually just trust that you know what you're talking about, and they'll accept that at face value, and they don't-- they can just move on.
They don't have to read any further. But you know, if people want to understand the thinking behind your conclusions, they can continue reading. Um, so putting that bottom line up front, as they say, is really important.
Kristiana Corona:
And it's kind because none of us have that much time in our day, and then reading an entire email to be like, "What is the full point of this entire thing?"
Like, please make it easier on me. Just tell me, tell me what you need right now.
Lexie Spiro:
I think when I was in earlier in my career, I was always, you know, I was always having to, like, argue my way and find ways to, like, convince people of things. And it was, um, you know, when you're relatively junior, like, people don't take your word for anything.
Like, you have to prove everything out. And so you just get into this mindset of like, "I need to set the stage. I need to, like, put all my cards on the table." Back in my Motorola days, I was on this committee to, like, redefine the company's, like, core culture and, like, how can the company, you know, modernize and take a big leap forward in terms of, you know, people, processes, and all these kinds of things.
And I pitched to the CEO that we should be opening new office spaces in, like, urban downtown areas as opposed to, like, the suburban locations that we've had.
Kristiana Corona:
Mm-hmm.
Lexie Spiro:
And, uh, I developed this whole presentation on it, like photos of different office spaces and, like, neighborhoods and all this kind of stuff.
And, you know, trying to build up this, like, idea that, like, it's cool to have, like, an office in the downtown space. Um, and then the last slide of the deck was like, "And therefore," like, we think we should move from... Like, our Motorola's headquarters were in Schaumburg, Illinois, and I was pitching that we move it to Chicago, which we did.
Um, so it was an effective pitch. But I was, I was-- I had planned this whole deck and, like, this, like, reveal at the end, and I was so excited about it, and I was working with this, um, mentor through the process who was an executive, and he was just like, he took my deck, and without even asking me, he just sort of like rearranged everything, and he put the conclusion slide at slide number one.
I was just like, "Oh, but they won't agree with that." Like, the, the CEO is not gonna agree with that recommendation because he doesn't know this and this and this about what I'm, you know, suggesting. Um, and this guy was just like, "Doesn't matter." Like, "It, it'll be fine. Trust me." I was like, "Okay." When you're talking to executives in big roles, like, they actually they don't dismiss people's ideas.
Like, if there's an idea coming to their desk, it's, like, probably a good one. Uh, and they don't just dismiss them outright because they don't understand the underlying context. So you have to kind of get in this practice of like, um, you know, delivering the core message right up front in an impactful way, in a succinct way, and then providing the supporting evidence of that, you know, thereafter, uh, if needed, and then facilitating the right type of debate.
So to have the confidence to just, just go, just pitch it. This is what I think, and then here's why.
Kristiana Corona:
I love it. Um, one of the other things I learned from you, and I really like, is this idea of mental models. And I just had never heard anyone talk about them the way that you do and how effective they are, uh, when you're doing storytelling, when you're helping people understand a new concept that they may not be familiar with.
So would you mind just talking about a mental model and why it's important?
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. And again, not my concept. Just wanna be clear. Uh, in fact, I'm inspired every day by my boss, Beryl Tomay, who just operates in mental models. Like, everything she does, every meeting she goes to, every piece of feedback she gives, she's always leaving this, like, simple breadcrumb trail of mental models for people to, you know, grab onto and, and operate, uh, with, you know, so that people can make decisions and move forward with speed when she's not around because they know how she thinks.
They know, like, this is her idea of how this experience should be, and so therefore, like, operating within that constraint, let's, let's move forward with velocity. So what is a mental model? Uh, it's basically like a belief. It's a value. Like, what do you value about an experience? And it's not that they can't be challenged.
Like, when Beryl says, "This is my mental model," she readily invites people to, like, challenge the mental model. And we, you know, that's where the debate happens, and that's where the interesting stuff occurs. So, you know doing all the, like, all the research insights that you gather along the way, all the time you spend out in the field, like you can see all my, like your gear field uniforms, my safety vests, and all the things you learn about what's important, you know, along the way. Like, the end product of that is actually, like, this set of mental models that you can form and that they just enable you to make fast decisions. And not just make fast decisions, but also, like, sell your ideas faster and more effectively.
Kristiana Corona:
I've also thought about it as sort of a, an understanding of w- the intent of what we're trying to do here, even though the actual, you know, iteration or what the final solution looks like could be different. So that you take out some of the details underneath it and you abstract it into sort of a layer of understanding.
Maybe you go up 10,000 feet and you're looking down, and it's sort of your understanding at that level, which everyone should sort of be aligned on first before you get into the details of everything else and exactly how you're gonna build it and design it.
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. Yeah. Like mental models are flexible enough that there's, like, opportunity to invent, you know, within them.
And, you know, teams are, are empowered and free to do so. Uh, and they know that if they run up against the edges of what that mental model is or how that's defined, they know that they need to then, you know, uh, either come up with a rationale that makes us rethink the mental model, maybe that, like, maybe that's the problem, or, you know, question the idea.
Like, if this isn't meeting this mental model, then we should probably find a different way. I read about, uh, creativity Like the source of creativity, what is creativity? And there's, like, this age-old, like decades-old model of creativity, which is that, like, there's some people who are creative, like the right-brained people.
Yeah, like when I was a kid, I liked art and stuff, so like in design and, and so people always thought people were always like: "Oh, he's all right brain." Uh, and then left brain is like more rational mathematics, engineering, that kind of stuff. And I read about how, like, that is ac-absolutely untrue, and creativity is something that is, you know, shared among all disciplines, um, equally, and that it's actually a process not right and left brain, but like there's two networks operating in your brain, and one of them is for like sort of unconstrained, like somewhat irrational and highly imaginative thinking.
And there's another brain network that operates that is very rational, and it's comparing those, like imaginative ideas against like the constructs or constraints or things it knows about the world. And so you've got like this, this two-sided thing happening where you're like imaginative and then like, "Well, that won't work."
And creativity is actually both of them combined. And the most creative people are people who can go faster between those two networks, like more times quicker. Those are the most creative people on, uh, you know, that we, that we've ever, uh, known of. Uh, so it's like, wild idea won't work for this reason.
Well, what about this wild idea? Well, that could work if you pair it with this other thing that we know about the world. Oh, what about this wild idea? And just back and forth. That's creativity. Yeah. And so I think mental models are like, it's almost like that, like left brain, like construct side operating.
It's like here's what we know about the world, and here's what we've decided. We've, we've learned all these things. We've come to realize that like, what's important about XYZ is that it is, you know, the experience is like this. Um, and then, you know, you can use the other side of your brain to like come up with these imaginative things, but it's this process of comparing and contrasting it to the, the mental models that are preformed, and doing that as rapidly as possible to innovate as quickly as possible. And that's kind of the name of the game.
Kristiana Corona:
I love that explanation because first of all, it levels the playing field. Like we all have access to these parts of our brain. Maybe we use certain ones more than others, or we feel more comfortable in certain areas than others, but we all have access to those same things.
And being able to know when to go to one side versus the other and how to train that, maybe those neural pathways to go back and forth between them and to be okay being wildly unconstrained, and then the next moment to be saying, "Oh, how can I prioritize or fit this into some sort of paradigm for how I understand it?
Or how can I rationalize it? Or what questions should I use to challenge it and refine it?" And then back and forth. When you use a mental model or when you have that kind of bigger paradigm to compare against, um, how does that change your outcomes as far as having successful conversations?
Lexie Spiro:
It's a huge unlock if you establish the right mental model and you sell that, like proactively, before you're working on the thing that you're trying to sell.
If you, if you share a mental model with your leadership and then, you know, when you bring the thing forward and it meets the mental model, you've actually already sold it. Um, and so I, I see a lot of times where people get frustrated when they're like pitching ideas and it's just, they're just concepts.
Like, "Oh, I designed this thing, um, this, this new feature for shoppers to be able to add orders to an existing delivery," which is, you know, something we designed and launched.
Kristiana Corona:
So excited about that one. Yeah.
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. I love it myself. But then, the nature of that experience and how it actually works, there were a lot of intense debates about this.
And it's like, if you're showing concepts about, like, what you think the design should be, you're leaving yourself open to, you know, there's like twelve people in the room who have, who are shoppers themselves, and they all have opinions about this. Uh, and so you're just leaving yourself open to sort of people being like, "Well, I don't like that."
If you spent the time up front proactively before that meeting of like already working on and establishing the right mental models for what good looks like, you're basically teaching your audience like what good is. Like, here's how I think. Here are the rules of the road. Here's how I think you should perceive what I'm about to show you.
And then when you show them something that matches that, they're like, "Well, that's good. I like that."
Kristiana Corona:
I love that use case because it's a subtle art of being able to help people guide them through a decision-making process. So rather than hoping and praying that someone likes it and just whatever the mood is for the day, it is what it is, you're sort of paving that pathway towards receiving a new idea by giving them the criteria for how they should think about making that decision.
What is important about this? What have we considered? What should you consider as you think about, um, these concepts? Oh, okay. I understand both what they did and how they thought about it, but also how I should think about it. And now I'm ready to see what you're revealing or have a conversation about this.
And I know the criteria that we're working with, and we're all thinking about those criteria consistently.
Lexie Spiro:
It's not easy in respect to the fact that like weeks ago, you needed to have already aligned on the mental model. And to, to align on the mental model, you need to have like an evidence-backed point of view where you've done the research, you've got the insights, like you, you know s- you know a thing or two about the nature of this experience and what it needs to be, and you have conviction on that.
So then you wrap this mental model around that evidence backed with your stakeholders and, you know, get them to agree that these are like the most important things about this experience. Great. And, uh, I think it's often the case that like, you could be showing them a concept that they would have rejected If you hadn't had the mental model alignment before, it's something they don't like personally.
But when you work in mental models, it transcends what people like and dislike. There's a more of a notion of like what's right and wrong and what's good, and it becomes more, uh, structured and tangible versus just like, like as you, I love how you said it. You said, um, the mood of the day, right? Like, don't subject yourself to the mood of the day.
Like your months of doing all this work, leaving that up to chance that like the people in the room are gonna be feeling good that day. Right, it doesn't seem a good idea.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. Okay, so I, I think that leads really well into the next topic, which is really around you're in the room, you're presenting this work, and then all of a sudden all these objections come up.
Concerns, objections, how, you know, have we thought about this? Have you talked to this person? But have you considered how this impacts the roadmap? Or it doesn't work, we don't have budget. All of the objections that you might hear. What are some of those common mistakes that you hear leaders bump into, uh, when they're trying to communicate these ideas to executives?
Lexie Spiro:
Uh, well, I think first that, you know, that's all part of the process. Like, the reason why that discussion is happening is to pressure-test your idea. I mean, especially at Amazon, like, no one's gonna just take your word for it.
Kristiana Corona:
Uh- Like, "Oh, it looks great."
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. And so Jeff Bezos said something like, you know, documents should sing.
Like, they should be like, when you read a document, it should just be like this perfectly structured, you know, clearly articulated argument that everyone can understand quickly. But that the meetings that unfold after that, like everyone's finished with the document read and now it's time to discuss it, you want, you always want that to be as messy as possible.
Like, that's where, to use his word, the wandering would happen. Like, as clear and beautifully written as a doc, uh, can be, it doesn't matter. Like, at Amazon, like, there will be people who have well-informed points of view that challenge your thinking. Um, and you can't anticipate all of it. And so embrace it.
Embrace the messiness of that. Like, that's what it's for. And so don't get flustered because someone's, like, challenging your idea. Like, that's part of the process. And in some cases, it's like I learn so much in that meeting and take good notes and take the feedback and my idea doesn't go forward in that meeting.
I have to wait. I have to come back again, address it from a different angle. And that's part of that, like, iterative process that we talked about before where it's like, you know, the Jerry Seinfeld, like, you know, workshop your ideas, pressure test them, and just never stop iterating on it. And that, that's true for pitching stuff too.
My favorite leadership principle these days is invent and simplify. Uh, subtext to which is it says something like, "Leaders need to be comfortable with being misunderstood for long periods of time." And I, I love how freeing that is. I have, like, no shortage of ideas that, like, are not ready to be consumed.
Uh, you know, there's sort of like this, this, this bank of them that I keep iterating on. Uh, and, you know, sometimes the most important thing to do is just let time pass and, you know, the world changes. People become more accustomed to, like, different ways of life and different societal norms, uh, you know, as the years go by, and we may be more ready for something next year than we are this year.
But you shouldn't stop thinking about what those things likely are to be. And so I've, I've no shortage of those kinds of like, "Well, I bet in the future it's gonna be like this." Or one way to solve this problem that we can never seem to solve is to do a radical rethink of it. But, you know, sometimes that radical rethink is just like it's so-- it's too radical for the people who own that thing, like the people who, like, who built it or are so associated with it.
Uh, and maybe in their role, they're thinking about sort of like making it better and better and better over time. And it may be that we need to, like, just start over and do something completely different from that. And not everyone's gonna be ready to hear that.
Kristiana Corona:
Yeah. So how, how do you determine then the difference between, like, when something just needs to have time pass and when you should actually push back on it and say, "Hey, this is really important that we do this sooner than a year or two years from now"?
Lexie Spiro:
There's this important concept at Amazon called, uh, one-way doors and two-way doors. And so one of the things I think about is, like, if we wait, are we gonna go through a one-way door? Like a one-way door is, you know, a decision we have to make or a move that we make that would be really, really painful to undo.
And so we're always aware at Amazon, like are we stepping through a one-way door here? And so those decisions you wanna, like, make very carefully and with lots of rigor. And a two-way door is a decision that, um, would be relatively easy to walk back. And so we can make that decision much more quickly and just go, try out, experiment, get it wrong, do it again.
And so if we were gonna step through a one-way door that would prevent me from ever, like, being able to pitch this big idea that I have, then, you know, I might have a little bit more urgency to, to get it across the line and get it pitched. Or, I don't know. I look for signals. Like, uh, we pitched this idea, uh, to, like, the CEO and, um, yeah, it didn't go well.
We hadn't yet launched the first version of this thing, um, this feature for shoppers. Um, and so we had no signal, like, on whether or not it was gonna be successful. We just had this hunch. And while-- like, before we even, like, launched the first feature, me and my team were already coming up with all these ideas for, like, in the fullness of time, what could this idea ever become?
Like, what if it could be huge? It could be like totally game-changing. And so we kind of, like, laid that out and, like, designed it, uh, and pitched it. Um, and it was just like just rejected. Like, we were trying to bite off more than we could chew, and it was just, uh, not, not well, uh, executed.
But in the year or more since that feature has been launched, it's, like, taken off, and it's super successful, and it's actually starting to change shopper behavior, and we're able to measure that, and the s- early signals of this are pointing to, like, maybe building to what we had envisioned, you know, slowly getting there, right?
And you can kind of see the, the stakeholders involved all starting to be like: "Yeah, this could be big." Like, you know, one, one small step at a time, they're starting to, like, edge their way toward that, like, North Star that we had talked about. And so sometimes it's like, yeah, you just have to let time pass and, and let some of the successes, like, let some of the behaviors unfold, let some of the data come in and, um, and people start to, you know, naturally gravitate toward the ideas that are working.
And if your big idea is just an extension of that, then it couldn't be much more re-received when it's not such a When it's not such a moonshot
Kristiana Corona:
So how do you, like, what do you tell yourself during that time period between, "Hey, we're completely rejecting this idea," until much time passes and now people are starting to see it? Like, how do you stay optimistic?
Lexie Spiro:
I keep looking at the evidence and, like, I challenge it myself. Like, I think it's important to challenge your own ideas with, like, energy. Like, you want to try to tear them apart. Like, this, this idea that you think is gonna be great, well, how could it fail? Like, let's brainstorm on that.
And when it keeps coming up that it's like, "Actually, no, this is actually pretty good," then y- you start to-- because you're challenging your own thinking, you're starting to build more and more conviction when those challenges kind of like fall away. There's actually like a, a super inspiring portion of, uh, Moneyball, the book and movie, that I always think about, and it's basically, you know, they have all these ideas on how to like re-architect a baseball team, but it's like it's not working.
It's like their ideas are, like, not playing out the way they envisioned. It's just, like, not quite catching on, and obviously, like, the media, the fans, like, everybody's starting to like just be like, "You guys are crazy. This is so stupid." And they're just getting all this pressure. And to the point where, like, some of the people who are in on it are, like, starting to second-guess themselves, and they're like, "Uh, I don't know that we can g- like, we're gonna get fired if we, like, don't let up on this."
And Billy Beane, the GM of the A's, played by Brad Pitt, basically is like, "Look, do you believe in this thing or not? Like, tell me, like answer the question. Are we better off by making this decision? Um, are we better off starting Hatteberg or Peña at first base? Are we gonna win more games?" And the guy's like, "Yeah, it's better with Hatteberg."
He's like, "Well, then what are we even talking about then? Like, why are we even second-guessing it? Why are we even discussing this?" And I just feel like I have that moment all the time with designers and the team, where when you have a good idea, like, you're gonna encounter like a thousand moments when there's like a really good reason that you're confronted with of why your idea isn't good. Like even the best ideas, this is what happens.
And you've got to have like the fortitude to kind of like press through a lot of those moments while also questioning it, like I said, and just finding that right balance. And like when you have conviction, like you've got to stick with it. Yeah, like this thing that Meg and I are working on is one of those where it's just like there's so many antibodies forming around it for so many good reasons and like real constraints and real business challenges that like have to be solved, and none of them are easy.
Um, and so if we stopped at the first speed bump or roadblock that we encountered on that journey, we would've stopped a long time ago, and we wouldn't have come up with... We actually came up with like dozens of other ideas in the process. Like, so you can't let yourself get caught up in that stuff.
Kristiana Corona:
It reminds me of when we were going through a different project that was very revolutionary, like an app redesign, and having to navigate all the different stakeholders and teams and technologies, and you just think about the scope of solving a problem like that, and it feels impossible in the moment.
But following the process that you talked about, where you're just taking it one step at a time, you're having lots and lots of different ideas, iterating on how could the workflow be, you know, you're getting your mental models, kind of some concepts. You're getting evidence. You're getting buy-in along the way.
You're solving one constraint at a time. And eventually, over time, if you're not giving up on it, and you just continue because you believe that the experience could be so much better when this thing is actually out there, and you have plenty of evidence, and you keep gathering that evidence along the way, that you can accomplish what many thought was impossible.
I mean, I saw it with my own eyes. And so that's what I love about kind of what you're talking about here, is it almost doesn't matter how big the problem is. It's about the process of how you kind of approach that over time and being really patient. I don't know if you felt patient in some of these examples that you've shared, but it takes a ton of patience.
Lexie Spiro:
It does take a lot of patience. I don't know if everyone would describe me as being patient. Like, I don't think Megan would be like, "Yeah, he's super patient." Like, yeah, I, I think you're spot on though. I think, like, trusting the process is huge. And again, like, if you stop at the first bit of resistance, then you're just like, you're shutting down a process.
And when you shut down that process, you're shutting down all of the future output of that process, and that's the good stuff. Like, in the app redesign case that you're describing, and in this new spicy idea that Megan and I are working on right now, in both cases, like, the initial idea, the, like, the basic value of it is being upheld through the whole process.
But, like, the way that we're designing it has changed a lot. Like, it's evolved a ton. Like, we've iterated on the thinking, like, a thousand times. So, like, what Megan is designing now is, like, not what she and I were starting with. Uh, it's better, a lot better. Um, and it's because she's worked through all those constraints, and she's attacked it from this angle, from that angle.
"Well, this person from the routing team is gonna take issue with it for this reason, and so we'll, we need to make sure that we make the experience do this. And the finance person is gonna be concerned for this reason, and so we have to make sure that the concept, like, addresses their fee-" And so by doing that process, the idea, like, the design just becomes, like, rock solid. And then, like, at the end of the day, it's often the case that, like, oh, you, you actually come up with something that, like, sells itself. It's like, this is just good. So we're getting close to that, I think.
Kristiana Corona
Well, I can't wait to hear the outcome of, uh, what is launched.
I'm sure it will be amazing. So I just wanna wrap us up today because this has been such an amazing conversation. I could talk to you all, literally all day long if we had the time. But what do you think is kind of the one single most important thing that you would wanna leave people with, uh, after this conversation?
Lexie Spiro:
None of this stuff is mystical. It's all dependent upon, you know, a few key things like process, structure, you know, developing mental models, and it's also dependent upon rapid iteration, like just never thinking that what you have is precious and just looking to improve it constantly and workshopping it the way Jerry Seinfeld would.
And if you just embrace that, and you work to create those mental models, and then you iterate within, that's how to come up with, like, the most exciting ideas and to get them built.
Kristiana Corona:
Love it. So if people wanna follow along with your innovation journey over time, where can they find you?
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn.
Looking forward to continuing the conversation, and I'll also plug that my team is hiring right now and, uh, we have a number of different open roles across design, design leadership, research, uh, event marketing. Um, so if, if you wanna get in on the fun, then just hit me up on DM and we'll talk.
Kristiana Corona:
Oh, now, now your DMs are gonna be full. I'm so grateful for, uh, having you come in today, and I appreciate your time and just sharing how you think about this innovation journey and what you're doing with the team. Um, it's so good to hear from you.
Lexie Spiro:
Yeah. Thank you so much. I don't get to see you every day in the office anymore, but, uh, if this is the only way that I'm able to get some Kristiana time, then I'm all for it.
Kristiana Corona:
All right. Well, uh, we'll plan our next one then.
Lexie Spiro:
All right. Sounds great.
Kristiana Corona:
Thanks, Lexie
Lexie Spiro:
Thank you.
Kristiana Corona:
Thanks so much for tuning in today. I hope you found some new ideas and inspiration to help you start breaking through some of the constraints that have been holding you back. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe so you never miss another one.
You can subscribe at worthytolead.co/subscribe. Until next time, keep showing up, keep doing the work that matters, and keep leading like you're worthy to lead, because you are. We'll see you next time.
